Dwemer Centurion Companion Development/Discussion

[Ayreus]

Hi, just following up on one of the suggestions I had before. I've been sitting on this for a few days now. This isn't going to be the usual, though, since I'm going to instead encourage you not to follow the suggestion. I've had some time to consider it, and I just don't see any way of making those permanent "specialization" upgrades both interesting and fun, since by definition they're supposed to be more difficult to find, which means that it'll be an inconsistent experience for the player at best, and an incredibly frustrating one at worst when they lose that upgrade they spent umpteen hours trying to find. The specialization idea is still interesting to me, but I'd encourage you to find another way to do it if it's interesting enough to pursue. Perhaps something simple like different spells summon differently specialized centurions. Or maybe you could have a "garage" area with some machines in Dumac that does it, though that approach has its own gameplay problems.

[bob196045]

Originally posted by Seniosh

One idea is artifacts that only provide a temporary boost - you could give the centurion a special fuel, which essentially gives him "fortify strength" for like 10 minutes or something, at the end of which it runs out.

This should not be too difficult to script and it certainly is a good idea

There are several different vanilla quests which the player may heal his/her companion, this should be no different



Enjoy
Bob

[InsanitySorrow]

Ok so we will have to talk in depth on this idea and any new ideas so I can come up with a new development plan. I am going to start fresh with most of the scripting and implement the new ideas. This is the best way of making sure it all works.

I do like the idea of having to find an item to allow the upgrade. How about the upgrades are permanent. Each upgrade does a small amount on their own but once all have been obtained you can see a big difference in the companion.

[Ayreus]

Just in case there was any confusion, I was discouraging the permanent upgrades idea. I don't see any problems with the temporary upgrades that Seniosh mentioned.

The biggest problem with permanent upgrades is what happens when the companion is destroyed. Do you go with something a bit more realistic and have the player lose everything? Or do you let the player keep all the upgrades at the expense of believability? Of course, considering that this is a fantasy RPG, believability probably doesn't quite make the top 10 list of things to worry about. You'd still need a way of presenting it to the player so that it makes sense, though, otherwise it'll seem unintuitive and contrived.

As it happens, I do have one idea that fits the Dwemer, at least for skill upgrades: A Dwemer companion memory core. Think of it like a portable hard-drive, storing all the information the companion needs to boost its ability (skill) levels. I wouldn't have it "store" attributes (strength, agility, etc.), since those are physical...but that's where the temporary upgrades could come in. And there are a few exceptions to the rule of making attributes exclusively temporary would be realistic, such as Seniosh's sword upgrade, but those would have to be lost when the companion is destroyed. As long as the companion levels up with the player, I don't think there would be any gameplay balance issues cropping up as the enemies level up with the player. Anyway, it would be intuitive enough if the companion could only receive ability upgrades if the player has the memory core. As a matter of fact, you could present it as the player upgrading the memory core, not the companion directly, and that way you sidestep the whole issue of breaking the believability of the setup when the companion is lost. That would give you your base item for upgrades, InsanitySorrow . You could even set things up so that the player needs to go on some sort of quest to get the parts to make the memory core in Dumac.

Anyway, just to boil things down since that was a bit of a long post:

Physical attributes --> temporary boost + permanent boost (losable)
Skill/specialization upgrades --> permanent boost (memory core)

[Seniosh]

The memory core could then be a requirement in building the Centurion. Each time you wanted to rebuild the centurion, you'd have to go collect the necessary materials, and put them, along with the memory core, into the dwemer synthesis/fabrication machine, or however else it gets made.

That way, the player still has to overcome some obstacles in order to get a new centurion.

Summoned things tend to die a lot though, which would make it aggravating for the player. At the same time, if you make the centurion strong enough that it rarely dies, it becomes unbalancing. So here's what i propose to balance out the centurion:

If it reaches a certain level of health, the centurion curls into a ball and stops attacking. Upon doing so, it gains massive amounts of armor, and health is fortified, making it pretty hard to kill (although it would certainly be possible). Then, the Centurion would stay curled up until the player fixes it.

[InsanitySorrow]

As far as I can remember this was planned as a summon spel you recieve for completing or findin the Jnaggo Armor. What I am thinking is make it so you recieve the creature some place else but the memory core could be found during the Jnaggo quest or for completing it, thus tying the two together and having just one companion in the game[Talking sword not included].

I like the idea of having a memory core and this is required along with other parts to allow it to be upgraded. I see how this will unbalance the game if it is made too strong, maybe we could have it so it "levels" along with the player. Meaning secretly in the background I have a script checking the players growth and adjusting the companion as is needed to make sure its as strongs as needed, though some headroom will needed to be added for the upgrads.

[Ayreus]

Originally posted by Seniosh
The memory core could then be a requirement in building the Centurion. Each time you wanted to rebuild the centurion, you'd have to go collect the necessary materials, and put them, along with the memory core, into the dwemer synthesis/fabrication machine, or however else it gets made.

Yeah, that's good . There are a couple of questions left though, as to how the memory core is handled and how exactly the upgrading process would work. Is the memory core held by the centurion until it's destroyed, like a black box? Or does the machine give the player back the memory core after it's rebuilt the centurion? And do you make the player go back to the Dumac facilities (the "MechWarrior/Armored Core" approach) or do you let them upgrade the centurion in the field? The MechWarrior approach might actually be pretty interesting in combination with something like Mr. Siika's airship, but you'd have to talk to him about that, and I'd think twice about making ST dependent on somebody else's mod unless he was willing to give it to you.

If the centurion holds the memory core until it's destroyed, then the player wouldn't be able to upgrade the memory core directly, but instead would have to go through the centurion. I guess in this context believability wouldn't be as much of an issue, since there's a reasonable explanation for transferring skills between a destroyed and rebuilt centurion through the memory core, so this route might be the path of least resistance, so to speak. So then, of course, the question is whether or not you let the player upgrade in the field.

If the player holds onto the memory core, then how does the centurion receive an upgrade? Does the player do something special with the memory core (like insert it into the back of the centurion's head or something) in the field, or do they have to go back to the Dumac facilities? Of course, you could always just say that the Dwemer were the original inventors of RF transmitters, lol. Ok, maybe not...

Anyway, those are all the issues that I can think of at the moment. Both ways have their pros and cons, so I guess it really comes down to ease of implementation and which way you think would go over better with the players.

Originally posted by Seniosh
If it reaches a certain level of health, the centurion curls into a ball and stops attacking. Upon doing so, it gains massive amounts of armor, and health is fortified, making it pretty hard to kill (although it would certainly be possible). Then, the Centurion would stay curled up until the player fixes it.

Hmm, sounds like you're definitely thinking about upgrades working in the field then. The only question is what happens when the player doesn't have anything to fix it with on hand. Imo the simplest answer (and I'm guessing probably where you were going) is to have the centurion curl up when it detects enemies, but otherwise still following the player around.

One upgrade idea that would be interesting in this case would be a "reflect damage" upgrade, so that when the centurion goes into the fetal position it casts a mid-range "reflect damage" spell on itself. You could always give it some MP back each time so it never exhausts its ability to reflect damage, since it's supposed to be a mechanical upgrade, not an enchantment effect.

[InsanitySorrow]

Ok so I like all the ideas and I am going to stand back and just take in what you guys are designing. In that case I will take notes as Ideas areset in stone so I know what to create.

[Ayreus]

@InsanitySorrow: Sorry about that; I'd started putting all that together and writing the post before you'd left yours. I'm just trying to be the idea guy here and put everything I can think of on the table, not make the decisions, and since you're the one who's actually making all this work your input is at least as important as mine.

[InsanitySorrow]

Ayreus: Its nothing bad, I was just saying there are so many good ideas coming from you and the others here that I was gonna step back as the developer and take in what you guys are designing, if I dont I wont have a clue what is wanted and what has been talked about.

From a scripting point of view, its always good to have a very clear view of what is needed and that is the view I need to create. I was by no means saying anything bad about the posts and the discussion, i was purely talking about working out what needs to be developed.

This should turn out to be a very interesting companion