Georgia vs Russia

[Gyssar]

You shouldn't believe everything you see on TV. You really shouldn't.

Georgia was not invaded by Russian forces, niether was Russia an aggressor.

Russia din't bomb Georgian territory. That footage is a fluke and the airport in questions is still accepting international flights.

Little facts of history:

1. almost 30% of people now living in georgia are and always were Russians.

2. 90% of Georgians have Russian citizenship (it's been like that for decades)

3. South Ossetia on the other hand is mostly comprised of Ossetians, not Russians.

4. Since Saakashvili became president of Georgia, South Ossetia and SEVRAL OTHER GEORGIAN PROVINCES have been rooting for independency.

5. The first province to get really serious about splitting away from Georgia was South Ossetia (one way they figured they could do that was by joining Russia).

6. Mr. Saakashvili was NOT impressed.

What happened next was a bloodbath in the form of Georgian troops massacaring nearly 4000 CIVILIANS (yes, yes, not soldiers, not even rioters, BUT ORDINARY MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN!) in 3 BLOODY days! And that would have continued until god knows when unless Russia had moved their troops in.

Now, let's take the US and NATO. Georgia - a major strategic ally because it borders with Russia. Of course they would support it wholly. The US's been antagonising Russia since WW2, and Georgia gave a perfect opportunity to do so by literally forcing Russian troops into their territory.

I consider the Russian government acted too LATE. They waited until South Ossetia OFFICIALLY asked for help. Saakashvili and some of his compatriots should have been shot on the very first day and a massacre could have been avoided.

Georgia and Saakashvili are not victims of Russian aggression.

Georgia is the victim of Saakashvili and he should be put to trial as a mass murderer and be put to death through the most humiliating form of execution (pardon if i'm being slightly uncivilized here, but I think that 1st degree murder of four thousand people just about warrants that kind of sentence).

Now, you might disregard all this because I myself am Russian and being "fed BS" by mass media on my end.

Well,you're right, I AM being fed BS by mass media on my end, but I know better than to believe it word for word be it foreign or domestic.

This story is a re-count of events witnessed almost first-hand. I have countless friends and family members originating from different parts of Georgia and who are permanent residents of thereof.

I rest my case.

EDIT: Oh, btw, did I mention that around 30 Russian peace-keepers stationed in Ossetia to keep the population of OSSETIA under control were killed during the initial wave?

[Lady Nerevar]

thanks gyssar, i was going to post something myself but felt that i didnt really know much about the issue. there is a lot the media doesnt tell you and a lot that it twists. russia rejected the resolution because it mentioned nothing of Georgia's aggression for example.

john steward did a wonderfull thing about the news coverage of the war yesterday. the american UN ambassador described russia in terms that could have just as well been used to describe the US' invasion of Iraq, the only thing he added was "in europe"

[Gyssar]

Actully, about that resolution, Russia rejected it because Medvedev warned the Georgian government, several times in a very meaningful tone, that the resolution will be signed only after Georgian forces have withdrawn completely from South Ossetia.

It never happened, the resolution, therefore, was never accepted.

Actually, this situation scares me witless. The US has a "legitimate peacekeeping" reason to invade this country now on "behalf of a strategic ally". I do understand that an invasion of Russia by NATO forces is almost impossible in the curent state of affairs (we still have a pretty large nuke arsenal, not nearly as large as the US though), but if they gather enough allies, and seeing how so many countries have been looking for an opportunity to size us down, they could probably muster enough strength to bulldoze right across the country. They'd get stuck in siberia cause no military equipment can survive those conditions for very long so far deep into enemy territory, but almost nobody lives there anyhow, 65% of our population is concetrated in the European side of the Urals.

I really do hope no-one's gonna start WW3 utilizing a local scrap as a reason...

[Alasdair]

Originally posted by Gyssar
You shouldn't believe everything you see on TV. You really shouldn't.

Georgia was not invaded by Russian forces, niether was Russia an aggressor.

You shouldn't believe all the personal anecdotes you hear either, they are often worse than TV. Georgia was the aggressor, but Russia responded excessively. Russia entered Georgian territory from both South Ossetia and Abzakia, and Russia did indeed bomb Georgia.

What happened next was a bloodbath in the form of Georgian troops massacaring nearly 4000 CIVILIANS (yes, yes, not soldiers, not even rioters, BUT ORDINARY MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN!) in 3 BLOODY days! And that would have continued until god knows when unless Russia had moved their troops in.

Even the Kremlin is only claiming 2000 dead in South Ossetia, and most humanitarian organizations in the area believe they are exaggerating (as you would expect), Russia just wants to overplay what Georgia was doing in South Ossetia to legitimize its invasion of Georgia. Clearly we have all been fooled by the evil western media while your state run news gives you completly unbiased reporting....

[Gyssar]

Those numbers aren't from our state reports.

Those are local militia and hospital/morgue data.

I don't collect my data using "conventional" means, I do my own research through private channels. It's a lot more accurate that way.

And might I remind you that the civillian population viewed the intervention of Russian forces in the conflict as a RELIEF all across Georgia and not only in the aforementoined regions.

Don't listen to the polititians, listen to the damn people.

Right, this is a pretty hot subject for me, so I'm just gonna go ahead and shut up before I offend any moer people.

EDIT: I just realized that we're talking about the wrong thing here. The NUMBERS DON'T MATTER. I'd have burned Saakashvili and co. at the stake if I knew it would save several children!

Even if it's 200 hundred people dead, you think it would have STOPPED? Guess again.

[DarkAsmodeous]

Whether you decide to shut up now or not, I definately appreciate you having spoken in the first place, its an interesting perspective and its gives a fair bit to think about. Thanks.

[Alasdair]

Yeah, but how do we know your private channels are any more accurate than any other information source? I would guess your information sources are all on the Russian side of the conflict, which is going to make it biased towards the Russian story of events. The problem with listening to the people is that all too often they listen to the politicians. Saakashvili is an idiot though, I'll give you that.

[MarcusAurelio]

well , i can never trust a single word from russian media after last April - the only clips they showed of the bronze soldier clash were the ones where the police was arresting the russian marauders - no clips were shown of the destruction they caused.

[Gyssar]

Originally posted by MarcusAurelio
I can never trust a single word from russian media after last April

Heck, I wouldn't trust them to find their own backside with a map I'll give you that.

Originally posted by Alasdair
Saakashvili is an idiot though, I'll give you that.

He tried to commit suicide yesterday by the way...

Although it was probably a publicity stunt.

[Zurke]

One thing for sure is this should be a European issue. The French are apparantly already taking the lead in 'talking' so let them handle it. The US should stay out of it no matter what happens. Let them fight it out as we have had to in Irag. I am glad some have brought up the US in Irag in this discussion, it allows me to say the following.

When we invaded Irag Saddam had already committed mass murder on his own people and was continuing to do so. Whether Russia committed mass murder or Georgia has will be a point of contention and reasoning behind Russian aggression against Georgia. Georgia will claim it's own reasons.

The parallels are very similar whether or not one wants to see them. Not a dollar should be spent until the EU has spent plenty and admits their very bad reasoning.