Murkwood Concept art

[Ibsen's Ghost]

At a push, we can use the SI root models for those roots but the idea of having arches and portal-like growths may have to be modelled individually, especially where they spread out from below.

Yes, I like the religious theme as well and I'd be particularly happy to see a Mayan-like temple of the type described by Deeza. The arched tunnels sound good to me too! Have you seen what Shadowgame has been working on: The Hist Temple ? I was hoping that the temple models he's creating here can be used in conjunction with the temple you're planning to create, so that may be worth bearing in mind as I'd hoped to use some of SG's work in here as well.

...but here's my main bone of contention with the 'temple in the centre' idea: I'm still not sold on the idea of having this as 'Helstrom'. Helstrom should have all of the temple stuff in there but I still like the idea of having Helstrom out in the open...and it would be Helstrom that contains most of the religious stuff relating to the Hist. This here settlement would act as a Murkwood stronghold and, as such, would not be so grand or vast as the capital city itself.

Therefore, I say work on the temple as you were but, in modding terms, I'd only use the temple model in Helstrom. The light effects you describe may surround the treasured Hist saplings instead. Light motes may dance around them high up and rays of light can shine on them whilst you walk the boards of the fishing/egg/Paatru bathing areas at the bottom.

I support Deeza's ideas of having homes wedged into the trees though and the buttress-roots approach being used. Those 'hanging homes' you were designing would be great for the Sarpa so a hollow trunk of some kind would enable access further up for Argonians.

It would act as a kind of breeding-ground/battle station/home but I'd quite like to see a circular building that looks like a semi-opaque bubble but actually serves as a communal drinking pit.

[Koniption]

Originally posted by Rickious
The species library sounds great, sounds like this is becoming more like a kind of monestary of the Hist, a centre for millenia of their knowlege. Maybe thats what its original purpose was, then during war time, it became a safe-haven and the settlement was formed?? sounds believeable to me, but like I say, I'm no lore expert.

I liked the buttress roots too, I will see what I can do.

As for the roots extending. If you mean out from the bottoms of the trees and wrapping around the temple, eachother etc? This could look really good if done properly, but it could also be a pain to model. I will certainly have a go though. I think maybe several large roots and the rest would just be textured roots and slightly 3D roots... I will see what I can do. I will stick with the temple for now, then try and make some buttresses which the root continues out at the end.

Yo Rickious,

If you will, can you post the "triangle" polycount of the different Murkwood city models you're working on (like the ring of trees, temple, etc)? They look fairly high poly right now.

Lastly, will you be able to "decimate" or lower the triangle count after everything is modeled, to the lowest it can go without affecting the shape of everything too much?

I heard from someone that an interior cell/room in Oblivion can be up to 200,000 triangles. Keep in mind, I've never made an interior that was nearly so big, triangle-wise. They said the 200,000 triangles also includes the clutter items, furniture, and other misc props/static/etc, however.

Soooo...
I'd try to stick with a triangle limit of 50,000 for the ring of trees' interior (and try to make the ring of trees 'exterior' about half that amount), 20,000 for the temple exterior (can be up to 50,000 for the temple interior for each room that is separated by a load door, but I'd try to aim lower. By "room", I also refer a set of rooms connected by hallways where the player can walk directly from one to the other without going through a door that starts a loading screen), 10,000 for the 3D extending roots.

This makes the current total triangle count directly within the ring of trees 80,000 (tree wall, temple, and 3D roots), and leaves 120,000 for other huts / residences /potential clutter/statics that'll be placed within the ring of trees.

I tried to divy up the triangle count the best I could, based on the 200,000 limit I remember being told about. I've no clue how various peoples computers will react to such an interior, nor if an interior of this complexity has already been done either in a mod or vanilla Oblivion (though I assume it has been done before).

Koniption

[Deeza]

I see what you mean, Ibsen...

Perhaps Helstrom is the big sacred site for the Argonians, but this place is more important to the Hist themselves? Like Helstrom was where the Argonians originated, but the tree ring is kind of like a giant synapse for the Hist and their magic? Perhaps Argonians come here to ask for advice or deliver reports to the collective mind of the Hist.

[Rickious]

IB, Im just here to follow the collective guidelines, so if for now I go back to the 'ring of trees' themself. Add buttresses, trysome root ideas.

Koniption As for poly count, I model in NURBS so poly dont come into it, they are totally fluidic surfaces. That means they will usually always look pretty good. I can convert to poly anytime to see how things look, but I may consider a more refined way of doing this. I might model the 'ring of trees' using lines instead or curves from the beginning, that way I can control which bits get away with being flat, and which need more poly for the curves. I will change to buttress roots, convert to poly and see how it looks and how good it looks when thecount is lovered to a good level, then decide if I need to build flat in the first place. I cant do normal maps in my software so the final product may look better than mine in a way.

So, I think the best strategy is if I try and get a good poly-count model of the inner 'ring of trees' and export them for someonw to texture and test in-game.

As for performance in-game, the poly-count limit is probably more of a software limit, I think peoples computers have come along quite a bit since TES:4's release and could probably handle much more. But even areas with the full poly-count dont show alot of this at once. So the key may be to break up the areas, cut the line of sight.

What so people think to making this a taller overall area, seperated into 2 or 3 interior cells on levels. A lower, gloomy semi flooded level with all the water related stuff. Then a higher level, with canopy above and below. Accessed from 1 or more hollow trees. There could be another mid-canopy layer too if required. The 2 mid-canopy layers could be smaller and more bustling. Have an area with intertwining branches, foliage etc, but only visible through windows, the accesible area itself consisting of interlinked treehouses, huts and hollow logs. This would mean limited line-of-sight again which would help frame rates and allow a much more cluttered, bustling apearance. I think this would be quite appropriate for a market area.


Will hold off any temple design now unless req, but heres a render of how it was looking anyway...

[Deeza]

The temple looks really good so far. Please continue with it - even if we don't ultimately use it here, we can certainly use it elsewhere.

[Lady Nerevar]

about the ring interior: since the player presumably won't be able to access all levels, a good way to control polygons would be not to model any detail towards the upper sections. you can take the complex model you have right now and bake it into a nice detailed normal map and parallax texture with shadows, and apply it over a almost flat top section of the tree. since it will be seen from far away (and likely with some sort of interior fog effect, as that too helps improve performance) it will look just as good.

[Rickious]

Deeza, I will certainly keep the temple and can work on it more if and when wanted, or when the tree part is finished.

Lady Nerevar, Yea, I will try to simplify towards the top of the tree models. Will have a go at remodelling with buttresses and in poly form.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

I hope this thread proves useful to you if you're thinking about architecture: Mayan Links .

[Deeza]

So, have you been able to make any more progress Rickious?

[Rickious]

Hey Deeza and all, gonna try a few things with Koniption before posting anything else. We will be testing my models converted to poly, UV mapped, exported to Koniption for fixing, collision and testing in the editor.

Will keep you updated.