The Gaza Strip

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Originally posted by Zurke
IG, it seems like you lay blame to both sides.

Not in the slightest. That's why I said it's not surprising. I'm certainly not saying, "why don't you sort it out, you silly buggers?" Rather, they're embittered. There's too much history between them and lots of old wounds that run deep. With the land in question having so much mythic resonance for both sides, I tend to think that they share a passion that is on a par with faith and I feel that this is steeling them to the fight.

On a different note, the US blocked the UN in taking action on the strikes fairly recently on the grounds that Hamas employed terrorist methods. Some believe this to be a convenient get-out clause so that they might give the upper hand to Israel. It makes me wonder if there would be any significant difference in their response with Obama at the helm...

[Gez]

Originally posted by IAMTHEEMPEROR
Though the Arabs themselves had taken that land from the Jews many generations ago, the people of Palestine were kinda justifiably angry that half of their country is being taken away as a new home for these outsiders, who have a different culture and a different opposing religion.

Many Jews lived in Palestine before. But the British "owned" Palestine and had promised it to the Jews, and ended up giving it for the creation of Israel.

On the Palestinian side, this did not make sense at all. If the Jews needed their own land that they would control in order to be safe from European genocidal attempts, why should they be the one paying the price for it? Why not create this new Israel in Germany, so that it would be the culprit who'll indemnify their victims? For the Palestinians, the creation of Israel was a disaster, forcing hundreds of thousands of people to leave their land. Since most of them were poor peasants, you can imagine what it meant for them. This was the "Naqba", the Disaster. These refugees settled where they could, but no other nation welcomed them. (Except Lebanon. This was a bad idea for Lebanon since all these poor and angry refugees caused all sorts of troubles which, thanks to some prodding by Syria, degenerated into the 15-year-long Lebanon Civil War.)

Originally posted by Zurke
What has Israel done to provoke the latest rocket attacks?

Trick question. What has the UN done to provoke the latest Israeli bombings on its school?

Israel and the various groups vying for power in Palestine (Fatah, Hezbollah, Hamas) have done plenty of things that justify in the eyes of the other side violent retribution. But the one who get the missiles are not the ones who are responsible. Sending missiles on a civilian-rich location which the enemy combatant has left for a while now is not an acceptable response; and putting such devices in such areas in the first place is absolutely unforgivable.

It should be stressed that neither side wants peace. Demography is the Palestinians' best weapon as, despite their far higher casualties, their population grows much faster than Israel's. Imagine if you have peace. What happens? The Palestinians who are citizens of Israel (they do exist) are more and more numerous. Soon, they no longer are a minority but a majority. What does it mean for Israel? It either stops being a democracy, or it stops being a Jewish nation, instead becoming another Arab country.

If there isn't peace, however, the Palestinian citizen minority can be controlled because Palestinians who aren't citizens of Israel simply cannot immigrate, and the minority who is already there can be jailed or expelled for terrorism. Israel stays a democratic Jewish nation.

And, on the Palestinian side, as I've already pointed out, the status quo of endless warfare allows the most hardline party -- currently the Hamas -- to stay in power simply by showing that they're "doing something against the evil Israel", nevermind that it's not something that'll ever help Palestinians as a whole achieve a desirable outcome. One's critical thinking and common sense is seriously impaired when you're barely surviving in a ruining city and grieving half your family.

So, yes, there is plenty of blame to lay on both sides, and there's some more to spread around as well. Creating Israel in Palestine was a bad idea, but it is now far too late to undo it; it would only make things worse now. Not making a viable Palestinian country when Israel was created, instead leaving only the disconnected territories from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, was another mistake. Israel's tradition of backing the Hamas to undermine the Fatah back in the days was another big mistake; kinda the equivalent of the USA backing the Afghan Mujahideen against Soviet Russia, giving birth to Al Qaeda in the process.

[Seniosh]

Well, here's the Catch-22, diplomatically:

Israel is never going to agree to a cease-fire, unless they get to control Gaza's borders. This makes sense, because then they can rigorously check all incoming traffic to make sure that a couple thousand rockets aren't being imported.

However, Gaza will not agree to a cease-fire unless they can control their own borders, which is so that, of course, they can continue to smuggle rockets in as preparation for the next time they decide to violate the cease-fire.

A tricky question, at best.

Also, regardless of the motivations of the upper echelons of Hamas leadership, the basic fact is that the Arabic militants who carry out the attacks are motivated by religious hatred. There are very few people who are willing to carry out suicide missions so that somebody else can perpetuate a conflict to stay in power. Religion must be identified as a major conflict, especially because it helps define the culture of both sides. It is merely a pretext for power, war, etc yes, but it is one that many people genuinely believe in, and until they stop, the violence will not stop.

The other unfortunate fact is that in the 21st century, civilians are shields. Wars aren't fought in fields, and haven't been for a long time. Hamas is willing to use civilians as camouflage and protection, and Israel is perfectly willing to ignore the civilians and bomb the militants anyways.

Israel has absolutely no need to consider the world's opinion. They can't very well make the arabs any more angry, and it's not like the U.N. will ever be organized enough to actually do anything about the situation.

[Gez]

Originally posted by Seniosh
However, Gaza will not agree to a cease-fire unless they can control their own borders, which is so that, of course, they can continue to smuggle rockets in as preparation for the next time they decide to violate the cease-fire.

Palestinians do not have any legitimate reasons to control their own borders, after all.

Originally posted by Seniosh
Also, regardless of the motivations of the upper echelons of Hamas leadership, the basic fact is that the Arabic militants who carry out the attacks are motivated by religious hatred. There are very few people who are willing to carry out suicide missions so that somebody else can perpetuate a conflict to stay in power.

The religious aspect (antisemitism) is a consequence, not a cause, of the conflict. It adds more fuel to the fire, but the core of the issue is one of territory and nationalism.

And as I already pointed out, the rocket firings are not suicide missions at all. By the time the Israeli retaliation destroys everything, the Hamas dude who set it up has moved back to the comfort of his underground lair somewhere. The Tsahal's strikes hurt only civilians, and this is exactly what the Hamas wants.

Originally posted by Seniosh
Hamas is willing to use civilians as camouflage and protection, and Israel is perfectly willing to ignore the civilians and bomb the militants anyways.

Which would be great if they actually bombed the militants. But they don't. Because all the Hamas loses in these strikes are the makeshift "rocket launcher with a timer" device they left there.

Originally posted by Seniosh
Israel has absolutely no need to consider the world's opinion.

Oh, well in that case they have only one way to solve the issue through violence. Methodically exterminating all persons in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, down to the last child, until absolutely none remain.

It'll solve their "Palestinian problem" forever.

[Zurke]

Simply.

Israel does not target civilians. The other side does. Which is why in my eyes they are the aggressors. Israel only retaliates in ways they are forced to.

We will always have war. It is a constant. But just like in other parts of the middle east, arabs don't care who they are killing. They kill for reaction and result.

Arabs can't or won't have a conventional war with Israel. They prefer to hide behind their civilian populations. They have the means to fight without placing others in harms way but they won't do it. That simply is cowardess.

My money and prayers are with Israel.

[IAMTHEEMPEROR]

Originally posted by Zurke
Simply.

Israel does not target civilians. The other side does. Which is why in my eyes they are the aggressors. Israel only retaliates in ways they are forced to.

We will always have war. It is a constant. But just like in other parts of the middle east, arabs don't care who they are killing. They kill for reaction and result.

Arabs can't or won't have a conventional war with Israel. They prefer to hide behind their civilian populations. They have the means to fight without placing others in harms way but they won't do it. That simply is cowardess.

My money and prayers are with Israel.

Well put.

[blackbird]

You can't say that there is one good and one bad guy at this conflict. Life is not that easy.
The isrealis are bombarding every building which should contain a terrorist. The result of this attack is that many pepole are wounded and even dead, including children. Isreal is overreacting.
In my opinion there is no good reason to bombard a house even if that house contains a terrorist. The bombs can always hit other houses and innocent people.
Much Palestinians knows someone who is dead due isreal attacks. I can imagine if a person you know is serious wounded or killed by someone, you'll hate the person or organisation that killed your relative. This will only fuel the hate of some Palestinians against Isreal and even some other arabs. And even at this moment the situation is miserable for the palestinians much more then the isrealis.
You don't solve issues with throwing some grenades into the house of you enemy. You could even wound the neighbours from your enemy.
BTW did you know that Hamas is a political organisation. Just like the republicans in the USA.
Israel has the right to defend themself against palestinian attacks, but not in such manner. It is going to look like that Israel is going to perform a genocide.
I don't mind if the Isrealis are checking transports meant for the palestinians or that they are surveying the borders.
Another question is: where does those rockets come from? From which country are they being smuggled? I've red in a newspaper that they could come from Sudan or at least going through Sudan and through Egypt. Off course with the necessary bribes and smuggling tunnels.
Both parties should stop firing at each other, but I fear that no one wants stop.

[Alasdair]

Hamas is a political organisation.

I'm playing devil's advocate here a little bit, but not only is Hamas a political organisation, it won a majority of seats in the Palestinian elections making it the legitimately elected government of Palestine. Much of Hamas' popularity in Palestine comes from it's health and education policies, they run hospitals, clinics, schools etc. Most of Hamas' funding goes into such efforts - not it's militant wing. Simply dismissing Hamas as a terrorist organisation is totally counter-productive. Israel refusing to engage in dialogue with Hamas and instead backing the rival (and corrupt) Fatah party, shows how little Israel actually cares about the views of the Palestinians.

Israel doesn't seem to want peace in the middle-east, and even if they did want peace, they would never offer terms that would be remotely favourable to Palestine. Israel won't stop its genocidal war of extermination against Palestine until the rest of the world wakes up and refuses to support it. It would help if the mainstream media would stop characterising the war as an innocent Israel defending itself against Iran-backed terrorists, and instead reported on what was really happening. Israel's brutal occupation, blockades, murder of civilians and settlements on Palestinian land are just as illegal under international law as the relatively ineffectual missiles launched into Israel.

As usual, Al Jazeera manages to provide some of the best and most in-depth coverage. It's surprisingly un-biased, but only because the facts speak for themselves.
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_o...30539.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middle...73954.html

Anyway, I have essays to write and exams to revise for...

[Gez]

Originally posted by Alasdair
Israel refusing to engage in dialogue with Hamas and instead backing the rival (and corrupt) Fatah party, shows how little Israel actually cares about the views of the Palestinians.

When the Fatah was in power, Israel backed the Hamas. It's part of the "divide to rule" approach.



Al Jazeera, unbiased?

[Alasdair]

Maybe unbiased is the wrong word, but they certainly are no more biased than mainstream US news outlets, and they provide a clearer, more in-depth perspective.