The Order of Massar and Secunda (r)

[raggidman]

chosen or ordained?

could the Lunar Lattice be a divine or semi-sentent 'message system' (crude and awkward description) that is informed by the motions of Masser and Secundus?

Also isn't there a 3rd, invisible moon?

[Ra'Harresh]

Hmm...

Well there's also a part about "the Lunar Cult", which explains why the probable enemies are brothers in arms. I'll get it translated as fast as i can. Then...there are also living legends - Massar (man) and Secunda (khajiit), who, being half-gods probably a bit more powerful than any daedric prince, are a great persuading factor...

About the third moon...The problem is i'm the only english-speaking member of the Order, so i need more time to translate the legend. Of course, we DID mention the phantom moon.

Raggidman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're a damn genius! Claws!!! Thank you VERY MUCH, man! Why didn't i think of it...? Someone's gotta draw a lot today

The moon sugar...gotta think of that.

Oh. And there's a procedure of becoming a member of the Order which includes a test by one of the Moons themselves.

And...could you explain a little bit more...how can the motions of J&J work with Lunar Lattice? We had an idea of "parking" the moons done by Secunda after a little talk with Azura. This means Jode Secunda is a secret Divine for the Khajiit, a God to live among them...

[Mridley]

but the moons are decaying. there basically just corpses

[Ra'Harresh]

Precisely, i just called Massar and Secunda "moons".
AT the moment im dealing with the third moon, but really, there's no contradiction with any theory.

[Brian S]

Whoa, whered'd this third moon thing come from???

[raggidman]

I remembered something from ESF about five years back, but not who or what ... however does a moon have to exist for fanatics to believe in it?

It could be a 'phantom moon' as suggested above - perhaps a spiritual construct that cannot be seen with the eye

It could be that there is some thing that is not a moon

It could be that some nutters want to create a third moon

what counts is that you guys find something useful in the idea and can make something of it

Some quests you want to be simple and others you want to extend further than you can see ... depends what this one is to be ...

About the lunar lattice - I suggest you bring JKJ's attention to this thread and what has been discussed - it may be that (her bein Ja-Ka'jay and all) she already has some thoughts, or feels a connection?

Heyyy! :eek: wait a minute - I'm a genius!!!!!!! - he said so - so do I get special powers and stuff?

[Ra'Harresh]

Yay...how'bout 95% hangover resistance? That would be useful for a genius... :bananarock:

Now...where's that Ja'Khajay...

And...I got some info from our ideologist today. Say when Secunda "parked" the moons (he was told to, by Akatosh, and when he was actually doing it, he consulted other beings...like Azura). At that moment the daedra attacked Massar's body, so when Secunda had to go down to Nirn, he left a major surprise for them. The phantom moon scared the heck of the daedra. So Jode-Secunda-The-Godlike-Khajiit was "born" when the moons were aligned for the first time. Next time the Mane was born (this one is still argued here...i mean we're taking a lot of responsibility on ourselves, so probably Jode came down when Mane was born) .

[Ja-Kha'jay]

The first thing i'd like to point out is that the moons move, orbiting around Nirn, even though the Aurbis, does not function conventionally like our own universe. So you may need to redefine "parking" the moons. Did Jone and Jode "park them in a stationary position unmoving (not orbiting) or did they park them in orbit around Nirn. I would think the latter, as with the former, the moons would have no phases, which we clearly do see. This would also dispell the lunar lattice, based on the phases of the moons.

The Lattice, like nuclear physics, is difficult to get your head around, but once you do, you get a profound sense of appreciation for the way the world works.

Now from what lore is given about the lattice, it dictates the form that every khajiit must take at the moment of their birth and does not affect any other races at all. this could be beause Men already have a deep rooted connection with Atmora and Yokuda, the Elves have Aldmeris (including even the Orsimer). The Argonians and Khajiiti have deep connections to Tamriel, their native land. As Tamriel is somehow special to the Aedra and Deadra (does anyone know is Mehrunes Dagon attacked Akavir or Yokuda as well as Tamriel?) this places the true beast folk higher in the eyes of the Eight (Talos not included, as he was a Man that became a God, thought his actual ascension is still debated) so their connection with Tamriel is deeper and more meaningful than Men or Mer can fully appreciate. The Argonians are associated with the Hist Trees (whether truely descended from them or not, that is for the Black MArsh team to decide) they oldest unchanging lif-forms on Tamriel, and the Khajiit have the Lattice, while not truely a part of Nirn, is is of divine origin (as was Nirn in the first place).

Now, the LAttice seems to have been formed when Lorkhans body was "cracked asunder" and reformed as the three moons of Tamriel. Jone and Jode are Massar and SEcunder the large red and small white moon. But the last moon, with next to zero lore on it, would probably be eclipsed by the other two most of the time, and so the inhabitants of Tamriel could not see it. According to Khajiiti myths, Azurah gifted the latiice to the Khajiit at Fadomai's request. whether she created the lattice itself, or simply bound the khajiit to it is also a contested point. the Khajiiti creation myth says that the Ja-Kha'jay is a separate entity from Lorkaj, and Fadomai gives the lattice to it/him/her, to help protect them from Ahnurr's rage. She also bound the Khajiit to the lattice by speaking the Third Secret to them. Tit stands to reason, the Azurah did not create the latiice, but she did bind the Khajiit to it.

Now the interseting thing it that the Khajiit believe that the ja-kha'jay is separate from LOrkaj's corpse chunks, but is influenced by them. Now, how the lattice dictates the form is unknown, even to me, but the literal translation of ja-kha'jay is Moon-String, so it stands to reason that the phases of the moons alter the shape of the moon-strings and this in turn alters the shape a Khajiiti infant will take. the third moon would not alter the shape of the lattice until it actually appears it the sky, where it would change the shaped of the lattice so drastically that the Mane is created.

Now how to fit all this in with Ra'Harresh's ideas...

When the Khajiit were bound to the ja-kha'jay, this introduced a slight instability into the lattice, which could only be monitored and corrected from an external point (like an x-ray of your body) the ja-kha'jay split itself into three separate consciousnesses (by the Nine thats a weird word to say and spell) to mirror the Lorkaj corpse chunks, which really are just hunks of a dead god's body. Massar and Secunda descend to Nirni to monitor and maintain the lattice. They would both take Khajiiti forms, as its the Khajiit only, who are really affected by their actions. Being largely divine in nature they are immortal but can be killed say if someone lops off their head. However the spirit would return to the Lattice and come back down to Nirni, so they never truely die. thus they never age, get sick etc. The third consciousness forsakes his immortality in order to be a slightly more public face for the three. He can age, be killed much more easily, and can get sick etc. His spirit does return to the lattice like his brothers, and descends everytime the thrid moon appears in the sky to take on a mortal form. i speak of course of the Mane. This makes the Mane a bit like the Dalai Llama (sp?) in that it is believed that each Mane contains the same soul. However not sure how this could work into what we know of the MAne myths. perhaps this is the true way the new Mane is selected. Only one Mane can exists at one time, as the third consciousness cannot be in two places at once. The popular belief that the Mane kills off his competition is simply not true, but could be backed by the Mane in order to hide his semi-divine nature.

[Mridley]

oooooo shes gud

but i still think anhurr should feature as it is the whole point of those moons. btw any possible relation to sithis as they are both sort of in the voidish.

[Ja-Kha'jay]

A very good point. Because of the instability caused by the binding of the Khajiit, it would make it slightly easier for Ahnurr to get through the lattice. Unable to stop Ahnurr from their heavenly place, Massar and Secunda and the third consciousness, descended to Nirn to continually correct the instability.

It more of a case of they can't see what doing on from up there so they have to be somewhere more distant to get a better idea of whats going on. like an x-ray, nothing could look wrong on the surface, but the patient could have a fractured wrist.