issues with Betmeri League

[KuKulzA]

alright, there have always been issues with my little idea...
so we need to clear it up... so, several things...

I will present the problem and how I would deal with it... then you guys can also give your own input

1. the name betmer is like an offense, and the beast-folk and outcast races of Tamriel are trying to win acceptance
   
2. the betmer would ally with traditionalists because they hate the Nords and Hlaalu & Dres slavers, but it was the king of these guys (Helseth) who freed them from slavery... it is a tricky issue, the ones you hate "freed" you
   
3. there are three factions within the league: goblins & orcs, khajits, and argonians; each with its own agenda
   
4. opinion of them in the rest of Tamriel's beast-folk, orc population, etc.
   

alright.... so....

1. Name
I think Betmeri league is not a good name. After researching, the Altmer used beast-folk and such as conscripts and cannon-fodder... they called these aboriginal folks or savage folks (like orcs) betmer... beast-people...
so obviously, the beast-folk don't want a name that put them down. Maybe something like the Pariah Cadre is better... a few cadres of very experienced warriors in Morrowind that are outlaws and outcasts fighting for their own land.
but we need to come up with a name that suit that... something that says these are afffiliated (beast-folk or outcasts) that are going to fight for their own land in Morrowind.

2. So which side?
alright, so from our planning the Nord-Orc invasion of the Redoran does not go overly well. Yes, the Nords take back Solstheim, and most of the Sheogorad, but they aren't able to beat Blacklight and Cormaris View, which is defending the rest of the mainland Redoran territory. I think what happens is that the Orcs and Nords will no longer get along after they've lost their momentum and aren't winning battle together. So the Orcs will desert them and go to Azhag's Orc Camp, or Valenvaryon, known populations of orcs. Goblins would go with the Orcs I think.
Now, Khajits... khajits could make big profit by working for Hlaalu and Dres, however that means they are working for their former slaver-masters. It is hard to tell which side they would choose, their descision looks less certain.
Argonians have more first hand experience of the slavery. Infact a majority of the slaves were Argonian. So I think they would know about the reality, of how many of the slave are now poo serfs and sharecroppers. I doubt they'd love the Dres, infact I think they'd still hate them.
So why ally with Redoran and Telvanni? I think the Orcs would identify with the honor and martial prowess of the Redoran. I think the Argonians would appreciate Aryon's decree saying that all slaves are freed and are encouraged to join military of the betmer... and the like Telvanni more than Dres

3. three factions
Alright... so these three groups have different agendas. Khajits want to get back at the Dres for of the past, but that is the small extreme group in Rotheran, most khajits just wanna go home. These khajits are also keen on making a profit as smugglers. The Orcs envision a second orc homeland in northern Morrowind for all Malacath worshipping Orcs in the region. The argonians want revenge. Already they have taken back parts of southern Morrowind. These guys in the Bitter Coast must be seen as an offshoot. They want to cause trouble to help their homeland argonians' cause.
so how will we deal with this? I think it should be on race. Orcs will go with Umug gro-Mashnar's quest-line, Argonians with Eleedal-Lei's and khajits with Ma'Khar's plans. Perhap in the future if my future Orsinium mod works out and goblins are a playable race than goblin can follow their warchiefs.
and then after that there are overall quests where you go to the ambassadors of their respective countries represented in Ebonheart, such as the Argonian Mission, for overall quests

4. Tamrielic Opinion
The Orcs back in Orsinium would be divided. Currently they are divided between Trinimac worshippers and Malacath. Gortwog's reforms and traditional orc ways. Valenvaryon presents a way to live the traditional Orcish way... somethign Gortwog won't support. It takes away from Orsinium's international influence and creates more trouble in his own land. However most orcs would support it as it is a daring and brave attempt at an eastern Orc land.
The Argonians in the Black Marsh who care about revenge on Dunmer would love the league. As Argonians are already taking back lots of southern Morrowind land (which the Dunmer siezed in the Arnesian War) a smaller offshoot in the Bitter Coast would be welcomed. It would b a big diversion as the Dunmer are scambling to kill off these inserrections and guerilla activities.
the khajits would not necessarily support a military venture in Morrowind. it is illegal, and the khajit don't want to openly support it. Of course, a lot fo money can be made and the trade princes know this. If Ma'khar is successful, Khajits will be able to smuggle in plenty of goods... and so SOME khajit nobles and trade-princes sponsor the league, but not many...

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[/hr]

another issues which is more like a combination of a few would be this:
Should be split this League into two allied factions?
Valenvaryon Chiefdom & Pariah Guerillas?
that way we can accomadate for the two very different agendas... Argonians caugh up north in Vvardenfell trying to cause trouble in the north so their southern brothers can have more success... and orcish Malacath worshippers and warriors trying to establish an orc-state in northern Vvardenfell sponsored by some khajits and orcs.....

I dunno, splitting them up will allow for shorter more well worked out quest-lines and deeper agendas.... but having them as one faction does make it sound more united than it is... now that I think about it, they support each other but beside that, are not one faction.... and are from very different backgrounds...

[dutchman]

Should be split this League into two allied factions?
Valenvaryon Chiefdom & Pariah Guerillas?

what you could do is make them 2 allied faction but really close allieds,
if you put them in the same faction there would most likely be a bad
coorporation.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by dutchman

Should be split this League into two allied factions?
Valenvaryon Chiefdom & Pariah Guerillas?

what you could do is make them 2 allied faction but really close allieds,
if you put them in the same faction there would most likely be a bad
coorporation.

alright, sounds good...

any other ideas? on the other issues

[Lady Nerevar]

i stick by my old idea, wich is that this faction anal-rapes lore (excuse the language) and has little or no reaso to exist. personal opinions aside however:

1) i dont realy see a problem with the name "betmer" it signifies beast man, wich is very suiting for the people. jsut because sometime in the first age the altemer refered to them as such dosent seem a reason for them to be totaly offended. (for example, columbus caled the nat.am. indians. nowdays many of them refer to themselves as such. and another, nigas call eachother nigas even though it was a racial slur). also, the name "periah cadre" dosent seem to fit. the word cadre is devined as a part of a larger military unit... but these guys are guirilla fighters, and are not part of any larger force. pluss, most people would not know what the hell it means (i had to look it up)
2)hm... personaly, i dont see them "allied" with anyone. they would probely prefer one "faction" to the other, but i dont think that they are allied in a military sence
3) hm... i say leave them all as one faction and make it be like 3 separate little quest lines.
4)i dont think that they are thought highly off. while some of the argonians in norther black marsh would no doght favor the league, i dont think that they would officialy suport them for political, military and financial reasons (wich im to lazy to type up and im sure you can figure out by yourself) the khajiit people are probely to absorbed in their own shit to care about what is happening in WM. and i know vvery little about osirum, so ill stay out.

[KuKulzA]

well about anal-raping lore...
I wouldn't say so.... its more like it is giving a story to the people there....
there were lots of Malacath worshippers and orcish warriors around northern Vvardenfell and especially Valenvaryon.... why not give them a story? why not give them a reason to be there?
giving stories to people in the world isn't a big thin right?

1. you are right I guess about the name... and perhaps the modern betmer uses it like niggas do... in a common non-offensive way that just takes the hate out of that word.... damn altmer.... and cadre... I didn't know few people knew that word... shows up a lot in communist revolutionary literature like "the ___ guerilla cadres will establish a ___ soviet in the ___ region bla bla bla"
2. I guess they aren't allied but would be when they enter into military service as hirelings
3. that's what is being discussed... I don't mind it either way, splitting it into two or leaving it
4. I think Argonians might sneak supplies to these guerillas... and when I said about Orsinium and khajits I meant that the official governments did not support it but certain individuals did... so they help sponsor the league I guess


you bring up some good points... but I still don't think I anal-raped lore... I mean, I don't like anal so much

[Ebonyknight]

Give them a name like Greenfist clan or something tribe or something union

[Axen]

Well... in any case, just don't anal-rape lore. Oblivion already did enough of it by itself (changed Sithis from just a force into something completely different, Boethiah's and Peryite's realms of Oblivion look just like Mehrunes' Dagon's, among other huge conflicts... and none of them have explanations for the changes).

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Arklon
Well... in any case, just don't anal-rape lore. Oblivion already did enough of it by itself (changed Sithis from just a force into something completely different, Boethiah's and Peryite's realms of Oblivion look just like Mehrunes' Dagon's, among other huge conflicts... and none of them have explanations for the changes).

I don't intend to... but in TES3 there were lots of orcs in Valenvaryon.... I am trying to give these guys a face and a history without making them too powerful or too involved...

[KuKulzA]

I think Valenvaryon will be like a small city-state of orcs that worship Malacath, a sort of eastern Orsinium, however they don't agree witj Gortwog's religious policies and have many Orcs gathering here.
The Argonian guerillas will be escaped slaves that want revenge, and are being smuggled additional support and supplies by sympathetic argonians... little by little... secretly.. .
the goblins are shipwrecks castaways from Helseth trying to ship large numbers of them to Mournhold... they have joined the orcs
and Khajits, they are more behind the scenes but the ones who fight fight for vengeabce like the Argonians

[KuKulzA]

alright, this is my newest idea for the Betmeri League, please bear with me...

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[/hr]

There will be three sides to the Betmeri League, three small factions...
the Orcs and goblins who work for them, Argonians, and Khajiits
in all actuality, it is the orcs and argonians that are the meat of the league and khajiits in the minority as well as goblins. The goblins are in a branch under the orcs - mutual protection.

Valenvaryon
Long ago, when the Trinimac-worshippers became Orsimer or Orcs, they fled to the Dragontail and Wrothgarian Mts., the land around Saarthal, and what is now Northeastern Skyrim and Northern Morrowind. The Orc-city of Valenvaryon is home to Orcs, Daedra, and Goblins, as well as beasts. It began as the center of gathering for the "malak-orcs" of the northern hills of Morrowind. In truth, these orcs are a mix of the orcs inhabiting Northwestern Morrowind long ago, and newer immigrants disgusted with King Gortwog's religious policies. The Valenvaryon Orcs want a small city-state for the Malacath worshipping Orcs led by Umug gro-Mashnar, and the majority of them are living in Valenvaryon or Zergonipal. Valenvaryon was originally a Dunmer stronghold but was abandoned. Now it serves as a capitol to these Orcs. They want to establish their kingdom as an "Orsinium of the East" of sorts. They have a slight urge to become allies with the Redoran as they share a common enemy - Nords. Also, they realize they alone stand no chance in a war between the Great Houses. They have a satellite chiefdom in southern Sheogorad where shipwrecked goblins have created a lair, this is indeed a helpful buffer against the Nords.
Hlormaren
The Dunmer stronghold of Hlormaren was the home of bandits and rogue mages until Eleedal-Lei, having been freed from slavery by a young, slightly naive, and compassionate Uvirith who was coming to power. As a slave, being born in a family that has lived for a few generations in Morrowind, Eleedal-Lei sees Black Marsh not as home but a place of origin. In the last five years he had gathered other freed Argonians or escaped slaves and traveled to Hlormaren, killed the bandits and rogue mages and set up a sort of warrior-tribe. This so called tribe is actually more of a guerilla group, all these Argonians of all different backgrounds all united by their hatred of slavery, their desperate need for a (in their eyes) good home, and to salvage a future through war. Of course across the sea there is Legio Argonis, the alternative, and Argonians are beginning to populate both sides of the Bitter Coast. One might expect these Argonians to be despised and hated by all Dunmer but Master Uvirith vouches for them, and of course they are a good source of auxiliaries and allies if war breaks out since most of these guerillas are seasoned warriors caught and enslaved, or seasoned rebels; this will also make betmer better disposed towards Telvanni if the Telvanni help them and repay for the centuries of slavery (though certainly not on such a ruthless scale as Dres).
Rotheran
This Dunmer stronghold is the base for the Khajiits of the Betmeri League. The truth is that their presence is only kept secure by the Orcish garrison there. The Khajiits have a small pirate group and a smuggling operation that smuggles lucrative drugs into Morrowind, and therefore raises funds for the Orcs who protect them. However witht he Nords coming in with larger number their position is unstable. Additionally, the Argonians refuse to associate with the Khajiit drug-lords who though are able to hire Khajiit mercenaries and provide good revenues, tarnish the legitimacy of the Betmeri League which is struggling to even become a legal group. Also, the Orcs are relying less now on Daedric favors, raids, and drug-trade for revenues, and now begin to associate with the Redoran.

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[/hr]
does this sound the most current rendition of the Betmeri League?
it's basically giving a name to emerging groups that are now left behind from previous traditions now abolished.
there is a problem with the name though... the Valenvaryon Orcs don't want to be called Betmer, that means beast-folk... they see themselves as good as the elves they are, or better....

any ideas?