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+---- Thread: New Modders Start Here (/Thread-New-Modders-Start-Here)
- Ibsen's Ghost - 03-26-2010
I'd like to create something here in his memory if that's okay. Not now though and only if it fits with Vintra's approval. Now let's leave this matter and not dwell on it. I'm pretty distraught by the news myself.
- jb3 - 04-02-2010
Greetings and salutations!
I'm an old friend of Ibsen's, we were both engaged in the Thief project called HI. I've recently exchanged a couple of emails with Ibsen, who encouraged me to drop by this forum, say hi.
I basically wish to say how much I respect and marvel at the Black Marsh project initiative. I saw the screenshots (wow!), read some posts and the project seems like a huge thing. So kudos! Black Marshes truely seem like a respected successor of the legendary Hammerite Imperium grand project. HI, which unfortunately never saw daylight in a form, which was originally planned. Too bad that many fan projects end up like that. Fortunately after so many years of work, a single HI mod (fan mission or FM as per Thief nomenclature) was released. At least something. Ibsen, you need to at least play it, it's good.
Still, there were so many plans, so much work, especially with the storyline. Tre-Cravon plot, Shivan's character arc, a grand city of Stormhold... Even though my involvement was somewhat erratic, we still remember all these names. How many mods (FMs) were planned? I think something in the vicinity of 10 or 15... Pheew! And a strong thing about Thief FMs was such a solid grip on the storyline side of things. I still have Frobber's 9 parts of "The Art of Storytelling in Computer Games" binder-version print-out on my shelf.
And I have to tell you (HEHE), I still remember one of the funny conversations I had with Alexius in the old days. He wanted to implement guns in HI. I was strongly against it, since it felt so much non-Thiefy. The conversation pretty much went like this:
Me: "What?? Guns?? Come on, no way. No guns in HI."
Alexius: "You sure? Not even a single pistol?"
Me: "I'm sure. No way."
Alexius: "OK, OK, no guns."
Me: "Pheew. Good. Im revlieved."
Alexius: "How about nukes?"
Me: "Huh? What do you mean?"
Alexius: "Nuclear weapons."
And here I almost fainted.
And he was serious. But... let's not dwell on the past. Especially since you have such a grand project at hand here! Knowing Ibsen's devotion, enthusiasm and dedication, I suspect this must now be your beloved "baby".
Not to mention, I've recognized some of the old work of Alexius now merged into the Black Marshes. lol Good, good, at least this fantastic stuff will be used.So... if I can help in any way, please let me know. One thing, I wish to say right at this point, is that I cannot guarantee my full-time committment. I don't know. But I feel I want to be honest with an old friend from HI, rather than disappoint someone later on. Maybe let's just talk on the forums a little bit and -if you see me fit- we can slowly develop my involvement. That is if you wish me to help in any of the departments. I might have some good ideas, might have some cool talents, but my involvement these days in computer projects is somehow erratic, I have to confess. So let's take it slow, huh?
Consider using my in the following areas: (sorted in order of importance)
* Storytelling. I'm not a professional writer, yet I believe I got a grip of how a good storyline should look in a computer game. So basically you can instantly tell the difference between a good one and a poor one, you know why etc. So if you feel comfortable with revealing the Black Marsh storyline, perhaps I could throw in some ideas, comment of the thing, help develop a side-plot or two...
* Modelling. Well, I enjoy crafting some cool things in either 3dMax or Anim8or. I understand that Oblivion standards are higher than Thief's, so that probably means more high-poly stuff. I'm not experienced with Oblivion, so someone would simply need to instruct me what "poly-budget" we have to play around with.
* Modding. I could always help in this department, however I'd need to first get a better understanding of how Oblivion works. I haven't played Oblivion in ages. I have CS installed and know how to use it. I made my own mods, like a cheat chest, super cool ring to help you play or your own house (well, haven't we all? lol)
Alright, that's already much as for a single post.
Ibsen, good to see you active and good to see a new grand project after HI was basically buried. Good luck with the project and hope to hear from you.Cheers!
P.S. I started reading some intro posts, one of them mentioning to start by grabbing .esm file. The link seems inactive: http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=10986 On top of that, I must say I'm a bit confused what I need to grab to have a preview of Black Marshes. I take it these are the .esm file and the .bsa files with several updates? Anything else?
P.S.2. I quickly browsed throu Pledge of the Lizard King, especially "...the important bit..." part. Certainly. I fully understand your position. Only what you make actually counts, the rest is but a mist and idle talk. So I wish to stress what I said earlier in my post (about taking it slow etc.). I simply do not want to disappoint anyone.
- Koniption - 04-02-2010
Hi there jb3,
Wow, you do have some talents floating about you! I think Ibsen needs actual modding of landscapes and interiors the most. The modeling depart. is pretty much doing ok right now.
The latest esm is actually v. 2.32 ....look at the last page (and second to last post) of this link :
Latest esm and esp updates
For the bsa files (which have the meshes, textures, etc), go here:
Black Marsh Resources: Latest bsa
Download the v. 2.19 files (in 3 different download; be careful of which Part 2 download you get - one Part 02 download is correct and the other faulty).
Then download all patches, # 1- #6, either individually, or using the download where all 6 patches are combined. These patches overwrite the meshes/textures/etc of the v 2.19 download (so be sure to put the v2.19 files in your Oblivion "Data" directory, first, before putting the patches in there).
Koniption
- jb3 - 04-02-2010
That's well explained. Let's see if I can get it to work.
Then maybe I could try my hand at a single interior?
- Ibsen's Ghost - 04-02-2010
Good to see you, JB. I just added you to this list: Naming Codes . It basically means that whenever you submit an esp to be merged, we can name it JB so that everyone knows it's your work and we can archive it.
Your first post was a really fun read for me. These guys won't know Alexius but suffice to say that he was (is) an extremely talented artist but I think his biggest downfall was that his creativity truly knew no bounds at all. It was sometimes frustrating to have your ideas twisted out of proportion. Between us we managed to forge some stuff that was pretty special but it was an unusual, and at times, frustrating creative partnership. JB here was useful in helping me bring him back to earth.
Have you seen his latest project, JB? He's creating a graphic novel which I think he's considering animating too. I registered on the forums but the stoopid thing hasn't sent me a confirmation email like it said it would.
Regarding BM, we're getting closer and closer to setting up quests, JB. Stick around and you should be able to help us work through some of the ideas. Deeza and I pretty have things in hand but it's good to have another adviser to bounce ideas off, especially if you know them.
As Koniption hints at, our modelling team is pretty damn special. So many talented folks over here! Some help with modding would be wonderful though. We appreciate anything that people can help us with, however small. And if you have an idea of something you want to mod that's not in the claims section then give me a shout. Welcome to Black Marsh! :goodjob:
P.S. Should I call you by the full name or would you prefer jb3?
- jb3 - 04-02-2010
Hey there Ibsen.
LOL yea, Alexius was (is) a free spirit. I remember working on a part of an FM (that was before you joint actually) and after something like 2 weeks, I submitted my work. Alexius asked me what was it that I sent him. "Well" I said "The (building/castle/whatever, I dont really remember today), as we agreed". And he said "Ah, we changed plans. That part is removed from the FM now. But listen instead we will have this grand grand (insert something else here, again I don't remember what was it today)".
Hm, let's just say I was a bit more than frustrated back then.I didn't see his latest project, but I did visit his website, which is indeed truely magnificent. He is a talented artist. And a cool friend as well.
Anyway, I don't want to bore/confuse you or BM team with things from the past.
I got the files, as per Koniption's post. But it's just now that I read bsa readme. So I need to change something in the .ini file. I didn't do that and all I got was some random stuff with part of the walls and buildings... (I tried to teleport to GideonMainGate area)
You can call me JB or by the full name, whatever suits you and BM team. I just thought that JB was shorter, so perhaps we can stick with that. I used JB, because I read your post about abbreviations used in the project.
With your permission, I would like to learn more about BM storyline. No matter if I help with a small dungeon or a bigger landscape, might be helpful to know a bit more of the lore. Not to mention that (of course) I am curious. It smells like an epic story focused on Argonians (the lizards, right?). Just like HI was focused on the Hammers. Grrr, I should stop comparing...
As I said, perhaps I might start by creating something small, like a single interior? We can see how it goes and take it from there. As per your 'Pledge of the Lizard King' post, I don't want to be just a helpless lurker.
So I need your help and advise here. Where could I start? What interior do you need? If you want me to come up with an interior of my own, I can do that. In such case, I would need to learn something about the storyline, so this interior fits somewhere and is not totally out of the blue. (please consider that I know close to nothing about BM now) But I suspect you have some interiors you need people to mod.
Last, but not least. Do you tend to have a copy of the above mentioned articles by Frobber? I know they are very old, but they are very very good. I consider them a sort of a 'bible'. Helped me a lot. I think I only have a paper copy, but they should still be on one of the Thief sites perhaps...
P.S. I must do something wrong with the install of BM. I changed ConstructionSet.ini and Oblivion.ini accordingly, but I seem to miss a lot of textures and objects in game. And when I try to open the .esm file with CS, Im getting tons of reference errors. How do you actually get to BM in game? Should I use a console command?
- Ibsen's Ghost - 04-02-2010
You have to be really careful with the archive. Up until recently, the folders were a little screwed up. It was just a small error but it has massive implications if you put something in the wrong place. Basically, everything goes in the Data folder and most of it goes inside the Data>Meshes>blackmarsh and Data>Textures>blackmarsh folder but there are others such landscape textures and creatures meshes that exist outside of the blackmarsh folders.
If you follow how the different archive files have been packed very carefully then it should work. However, it's easy to get things wrong. Soon I'll have our archives back into bsa format which is just a single file that you can put into your Data folder. That's the whole reason those instructions about the .ini files are there. In fact, you don't really need to do that to the .ini files unless you have an archive in bsa format.
Nevertheless, if you can find out which items are causing you problems then maybe I can get to the root of the problem. It's normally just a mis-placed folder or two. Reference errors would seem to indicate that you did something wrong with the meshes folders as if you did something wrong with the textures then the objects will appear but they'll show up purple.
The storyline is sort of difficult to explain. I guess I should produce a cut-down version of it but, for security reasons, I don't want to reveal the full plans online. I only do that on private forums. Storylines can be written for single quests but they don't necessarily apply directly to the whole story arc. In which case, many contributions come in the form of what you will see on the literature and lore sections of our forum.
Literature is the background detail so it wouldn't be best to start here: http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/board.php?boardid=64 but to fill in the details afterwards. Lore, on the other hand, is more useful in getting acquainted and can be found here: http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/board.php?boardid=155 . Deeza's Faction write-ups are a good place to start and this thread in particular: Black Marsh Lore provides you with a wealth of storyline-fodder.
Overall, the amount of lore in ES adventures is so vast that it's only ever a case of glimpsing it here and there. The lore of ES doesn't interest me that much, personally. I prefer writing without what I perceieve as restrictions. Nevertheless, Deeza is superb with lore and really helps to keep my ideas straight.
So I'll restrict the ideas to a series of themes:
- The events of our mod take place after the events of Oblivion and they will involve the PC helping to bring Argonia to some sense of order.
- The Argonians have been subject to slavery in the past, mainly through the Dunmer, whose land of Morrowind lies North of the mountains at the top of our map. The Dunmer (and slavemasters) appear in the storyline.
- The presence of the Hist are significant. The Hist are (un)natural beings that take the form of trees and have existed since before men and mer (elves and the like) and probably exert far greater power over the Daedra than the Nine. Their natures and intentions are, however, mysterious and complex.
- The so-called 'beast-races' of Argonia come under considerable persecution outside of Argonia but all play a signficant role in the mod. The Argonians are those you know but we also have the Sarpa (a bird race), the Paatru (an amphibian race) and the Naga (a hosile snake-like race). We will explore these races at greater length in the main quests.
- Bhuru magic plays a significant role. The recruitable companion (with my recorded voice) of Anaster Marrowmir will appear as an assistant in understanding this magic which has more power than the vanilla magics but is wilder and can be likened to voodoo.
- The subject of who rules Black Marsh is also a hot topic as the so-called 'King' is unable to rule from his capital city of Helstrom due to what is believed to be a falling out of favour with the Hist.
- The rootworms are vast creatures that can be used to transport people in their bellies from one end of the country to another very swiftly. They are believed to have some mystic importance that connects them with the Hist. However, they are mysteriously dying and some of their corpses can be found strewn amongst the landscape, much to the horror of their Argonian keepers.
- Stormhold Cathedral bears the tale of Lucius Constantine, a man who might just symbolise what the future holds for Argonia...but his name is tainted and his followers are treated as heretics in both Cyrodiil and Morrowind alike.
- Diseases wrack the populace and wreak havoc. None more so than the Khanaten flu which may return once more.
[/list=1]
All claims can be found here: http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/board.php?boardid=237 . We're in need of help with interiors, dungeons and landscapes. I can handle the landscapes and a fair amount of the dungeons but it's a lot of work....although the team chips in in fits and starts. DoZeNt and Russian Argonia blitzed some settlements not so long ago and now Deeza is motoring through some of the claims. I would recommend choosing something like the Stormhold or Gideon interiors as these ones are already laid out. It's just a case of re-organising them and replacing the vanilla objects with our own ones and adding an NPC. Dead easy, really!
Btw, I don't have those things by Frobber...lost in the mists of time.
- jb3 - 04-02-2010
OK, I copied the files to Data folder, exactly as they were in the zips. I used the 2nd data file from the alternate source, as indicated.
So this is the structure I have after unpacking the files:
Data\
DistantLOD\
Meshes\
Trees\
Textures\
Meshes\
blackmarsh\ (Architecture, armor etc.)
Characters\ (_Male, Hair)
Creatures\ (DesertLizardMount, DesertLizardrunnerMount, ttpets)
Trees\
bm\
pbm\
silgradblackgum\
silgradff\
Textures\
blackmarsh\ (architecture, argonianvillage etc.)
Characters\ (baaz, CApucine etc.)
landscape\
landscapelod\
Menus\
trees\
Other than that, I put the .esm file (version 2.32.7) in the Data folder and ticked it in the 'Data Files'.
I use OBSE 17b. Should I maybe do it without OBSE? Can it cause problems?
Also, I do not have SI. Does BM require it? I do have the latest Oblivion patch installed and KotN.
Finally, I didn't disable the mods I use. Perhaps I should try again using a fresh saved game, no other mods.
Does the above help? Should I describe something else, which I did when copying BM files, so it could help you get to the root of the problem? Yes, when I view Gideon city in CS (after ignoring all the reference msgs), I see most of the stuff in purple, which would indicate lack of objects and textures.
How do I go to Black Marsh realm? There doesn't seem to be any connection with the rest of Cyrodiil. How do you get there? (For now I just made a simple tele spell)
I will pick one of the interiors from the Claim link provided, once I figure out how to run BM. I will take a look at the options in game mode and CS. In general I agree with your suggestion to pick something in Stormhold or Gideon for the sake of simplicity.
- Ibsen's Ghost - 04-02-2010
Yes, I think the lack of SI is the sole cause of the problems here. Everything that you have in your folders there looks spot on. Gideon, however, uses quite a few SI textures and the game relies upon the SI archives in order to show these.
And yes, disabling all other mods is a definite plus but I should think that, in order to just load it up in-game, you'll probably only need to have SI installed and that will sort everything out.
Sorry, I missed that bit about teleporting earlier. It's dead easy when you know how. Just go into the console when you enter the gameworld. It's normally the key at the top-left of your keyboard that produces this symbol: ` . Once at the command prompt, type in cow blackmarshes 0,0. This will take you into the unmodded landscape of Murkwood with the Everglades to the West. However, if you take a look at this thread: All Maps (REFERENCE ONLY - No Posting) then you should be able to choose your destination.
Lower down are the grid maps with the x axis along the top and the y axis along the side. All the numbers on the far left are minus values whilst all the numbers towards the bottom are also minus values. Therefore, you should find the village of RockGuard somewhere around -19,01. Therefore, cow blackmarshes -19,01 should take you straight there. I can't remember if you use the 0 in front of single numbers now (dunno why...old age, I guess) but try it without if it doesn't work.
I'm just in the process of adding creatures so you won't get attacked. Enjoy!
- jb3 - 04-03-2010
I installed SI, but it didn't help. Teleportation using the console command works OK, but I seem to have only very few of the textures and objects. The mentioned village of RockGuard is but a pool of water with trees floating above it and few doors to the interiors floating above it, too. (no walls, just doors)
I will try with a fresh save, maybe that will help.
P.S. Weeee! It must have been due to a conflict with some other mod. When I disable all the other mods and create a new character, it works.