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+---- Thread: Pledge of the Lizard King (/Thread-Pledge-of-the-Lizard-King)
- Deeza - 09-29-2010
While I understand where Xae and Ibsen are coming from (I know that modders who are enthusiastic but contribute little have been an issue in the past), I have to wonder if the policy you're suggesting is a bit too hardline.
I say this because there are some modders who are not very good but genuinely want to learn, and being part of a team is a great way to do this. Everyone starts at the bottom - when I joined BM I was pretty much clueless about modding and lore, and being part of the team was very important in that learning process. Whilst I agree with you about genuine time-wasters who talk a lot and do nothing, I think that it would be a mistake simply to reject someone because their initial work is sub-par, provided that (and this is a big that) they are willing to accept critique/advice on improving their work, and show improvement thereafter.
Silgrad and the BC forums do have a reputation of being a friendly place that people new to modding can learn, and I think it's in everyone's best interests if we maintain this. I'd bring up the example of TR, which has a draconian policy for validating new members, which I know from personal experience can be very disheartening for a modder who is just starting out.
I'm concerned that a "strike and you're out" policy like that might discourage modders who are terrible now but have the potential to be good in the future. I realise that you don't want to babysit inexperienced modders, but we also need to ensure the long-term future of this modding community, and training people up is an important part of that. People leave modding for all sorts of reasons, and it would be naive to think that we are all going to be around here in the future.
So I think that commitment should really be key here, rather than initial skill. TOYB/morcroft made the helpful suggestion the other day that all new members should upload whatever they're working on every week, whatever state it's in. They should be prepared to fix any problems we identify in their work, and read tutorials/lore background as necessary. People who fail to "report in", or who get annoyed at the criticism, we can safely say are people we do not want.
In this way we can weed out the time-wasters without running the risk of alienating people who could be valuable members but aren't there yet.
- Xae - 09-30-2010
When it comes to writers, I think it's rather unlikely that someone going to learn it from working on a mod for a year or two, since it's not just a skill but also a natural talent that you're just born with, and as such, there's not much place for an inexperienced writer on the team, no less since we have a very literate leader at the helm. If they want to stick around here, share some thoughts and ideas while receiving critique in a mature fashion, that's certainly not a problem. However, so many applicants consider their ideas as paragons that just have to be in the mod because "they're so awesome", or whatever. They're not here to learn, but rather to glorify themselves.
Designing a dungeon is more of a harrowing task than most would expect since it requires not only an aesthetic eye but also a fluent understanding of the game at hand. That being said, interiors/exteriors come in many flavours, some of which would be appropriate to someone who's just starting out. A house is just a house, after all, and isn't particularly interesting on its own.
Nevertheless, I still think that if someone submits something that is truly "awful" (and I mean it in the full sense of the word) then we'd be well within the realm of reason to tell the applicant not to shove off but rather to do some modding on their own until they know the basics. The "make like a tree" was directed specifically towards those who merely talk big but end up doing little else.
I tend to lean towards meritocracy since I was born without a soul but I've never run a mod so I'll trust Ibsen to make the right call.
- The Old Ye Bard - 09-30-2010
Quote:Originally posted by Xaeaix
When it comes to writers, I think it's rather unlikely that someone going to learn it from working on a mod for a year or two, since it's not just a skill but also a natural talent that you're just born with, and as such, there's not much place for an inexperienced writer on the team, no less since we have a very literate leader at the helm. If they want to stick around here, share some thoughts and ideas while receiving critique in a mature fashion, that's certainly not a problem. However, so many applicants consider their ideas as paragons that just have to be in the mod because "they're so awesome", or whatever. They're not here to learn, but rather to glorify themselves.
Designing a dungeon is more of a harrowing task than most would expect since it requires not only an aesthetic eye but also a fluent understanding of the game at hand. That being said, interiors/exteriors come in many flavours, some of which would be appropriate to someone who's just starting out. A house is just a house, after all, and isn't particularly interesting on its own.
Nevertheless, I still think that if someone submits something that is truly "awful" (and I mean it in the full sense of the word) then we'd be well within the realm of reason to tell the applicant not to shove off but rather to do some modding on their own until they know the basics. The "make like a tree" was directed specifically towards those who merely talk big but end up doing little else.
I tend to lean towards meritocracy since I was born without a soul but I've never run a mod so I'll trust Ibsen to make the right call.
My skills as a writer were developed by working on mods, I started off writing shitty little poetry for TR (I even posted over there using 'ectoskellton' instead of exoskeleton), and then similar stuff for Skyrim for Oblivion -I now write graphic novels, and I've written a decent amount of material for the BC (Elsweyr in particular).
"They're not here to learn, but rather to glorify themselves." I was exactly the same when I started out, why? Because I was only 14, which is a very common age for modders to start out. I was treated poorly at TR because of the way I acted, so eventually I made my way to the BC, and if it hadn't been such a good environment here I would have likely moved on and not become the modder I am today. You can even see the horrible posts here(link to my old posts on the TR boards has been removed) -and now I'm co-leading two BC Mods, have previously co-lead Black Marsh, Thras and also solely & co-lead Skyrim for Oblivion -and I've now been in the BC longer than any other of the current Project Leaders.
So to pass off any modder who shows enthusiasm, no matter their maturity, the quality of work they do, or even the posts they make, is unwise, in a year-or-so they could be leading one of the projects.
[mod=sandor]TR link removed[/mod]
- Xae - 09-30-2010
Quote:Originally posted by The Old Ye BardIf BM was an educational institution, I'd agree. Now, this is getting off-topic. I've shared my thoughts on the matter and the decision rests with the leader.
So to pass off any modder who shows enthusiasm, no matter their maturity, the quality of work they do, or even the posts they make, is unwise, in a year-or-so they could be leading one of the projects.
- Koniption - 09-30-2010
Just let me derail this topic one more time, since I haven't chimed in yet:
I agree with Deeza and The Old Ye Bard. Yes, we usually get those who sign up and then they do nothing...but in between there are some gems - "diamonds in the rough", so to speak. I agree that we need measures to lessen the occurrence and impact of those who sign up and do nothing, though, if possible. I leave the decision of what measures up to Ibsen, though.
That's all.
Koniption
- Ibsen's Ghost - 09-30-2010
Quote:Originally posted by morcroft
I've made, like, a tree or two. Does that make me a member?
You're kidding, right? Of course! Talu swamplands alone are very much your contribution.
And this is where the line is drawn: some arrive promising the world and delivering nothing. It's incumbent upon myself and other senior members to move people into the correct role. The biggest problem I have is with inexperienced writers with zero modding skills because, as with MX, to whom I am not against joining, they are very unlikely to contribute anything of value early on. This is because of the 'getting someone to mod your quests' issue and the 'getting to know the mod in the first place' issue combined. Therefore, to minimise the advising, a system of threads is in place for the very reason to nod people towards essential information without having to write shedloads directly in response.
Personally, I'm too busy to moderate newbies who arrive and spam the forums because they don't know how it's organised (although it can be quite understandable) and I don't like seeing valuable team members having their own time absorbed in this way. However, as Deeza says (with great nobility), these forums have a tradition of assisting people that should be honoured.
Therefore, my solution is this:
"The new modder must state their skills from the outset when introducing themselves. Then either I or another moderator / core member can give to that member a suitable task. In MX's case, the only solution is/was to move to the literature section. They then develop their skills in that role and may work towards gaining skills in other areas. However, we must reinforce the message that many major decisions have already been made and that the forums are organised carefully to give valuable information simply by linking to the right places. Any further contributions in other areas must be introduced gradually, not because we distrust or do not value them but to ensure that everything is organised and on-track. The rule of 'keep in touch' or 'keep us informed' remains the same, however. Modders must be given a trial task to ensure that they are here for a good reason and not just to waste our time by getting the bsa off us so they can have a bit of a play or to get a sneak-peak."
Some clearly pose as modders for this very purpose. The latter people really piss me off! X( We need to chase them across cyberspace with cyber-whips!
- morcroft - 09-30-2010
Quote:Originally posted by Ibsen's Ghost
Quote:Originally posted by morcroft
I've made, like, a tree or two. Does that make me a member?
You're kidding, right? Of course! Talu swamplands alone are very much your contribution.
Er, yes - my facetious nature couldn't resist misconstruing "make like a tree."
- Ibsen's Ghost - 09-30-2010
- sandor - 10-01-2010
TR has it's own policy regarding new modders which is fine. :check:
These are ST boards with hosted projects and I would appreciate if we stop discussing TR policies on our boards.
If you have a problem with TR discuss it over at TR.
This is not open for discussion.
Thank you.
sandor, Admin
- Ibsen's Ghost - 04-11-2011
Given the lack of progress lately, I'm considering altering plans a little for the beta which MUST be released before Skyrim. Hopefully over summer we can finish off the NPCs, fine-tune the cities, get a couple more dungeons and get some quests in-place so that it will be properly playable.
If I end up seriously overworked in RL as I have been then it will limit my involvement and, realistically, I have to consider what can be released in the circumstances with the added acknowledgement that the likely loss of interest in this mod once Skyrim is released will very likely mean that the full version of BM becomes unviable.
As I've always intended to just 'do a release' I'm therefore re-considering the extent of my own involvement with the project beyond this and may decide it best to leave. However, not without a release. I will try to recall all members during this Easter period and beyond so that we can push for the best we can achieve in the current circumstances. Nevertheless, I believe the project is already the dog's b******s in many ways. It's just a pity that the final thing just seems very unrealistic and I'm sure that anyone downloading it will feel it's a shame too. Sadly, without the support and assistance (and many people working hard in RL), I owe it to myself to cut my losses.
As far as this concerns the beta then it may be best to 'make do' in some cases. We can't, for example, being hanging around waiting for stuff like the Kothringi ruin models when there is a need to focus and produce something that feels substantial, even if that means discarding the grander plans.