Vivec and Nerevarine

[bob196045]

Howdy


First off I just can not believe that this thread is still going after nearly 2 1/2 years


Secondly, how did we go from discussing Vivec and Nerevarines fate to how are we getting to Vvardenfell hrug:

And I do like the prison ship Idea, its fitting



Enjoy
Bob

[Efcaz]

read the first post
these two parts inpreticulare

"However, to enter Vvardenfell... you must go to a big port like Blacklight and when you ask about traveling to Vvardenfell, you will be ordered by the chief guard to go to Vivec... so you do.. you are brought to Vivec and there is a cutscene...."

"SO... what are your thoughts? any suggestions? comments? this is crucial... this is how it all begins for us... so please... be participating!"

[bob196045]

I may be old but I remember the first post

I also remember that those ideas were looked over and re-though in other posts long ago. again and again.

Consider that Blacklight, Silgrad and other areas of Morrowind may not be available, the player may not want those mods

I would suggest a different means to get to Vvardenfell

Magical

or

By ship from a port in Cryodiil

As far as Vivec being their. I still say NO, why.... because in ES3 some players killed Vivec and some did not, Bethesda took this into consideration and claimed Vivec as MIA, and it really should be left that way

Nerevarine is a different story, Nerevarine is in Akavir, why or how we do not know, but thir is no reason why the Nerevarine can not make cameo appearances, I had suggested using the "cloak of concealment" which was used in ES3, this cloak will change the appearance of a player or npc to that of an old Dunmer Male, the cloak is not necessary only the theory behind it, CONCEALMENT... this would really be the only feasible way to have the Nerevarine appear in ES4 without causeing many complaints about the different characters and armor used by various players

AND even if the Nerevarine is brought to Vvardenfell ES4 it should only be used in a very very short appearance and only for some critical moment in the main quest of ES4 Vvardenfell

Thats bout all I got for now


Enjoy
Bob

[raggidman]

Guess I get to re-iterate a d hopefully clarify the earlier position, plus ...

I love SACarrow's presentation with topic: "Am I the Nerevarine?" and the NPC telling him: "Don't be silly! I've met the Nerevarine, and you are MOST definitely not the Nerevarine!" This has pathos, and puts the player firmly in his place

Next - what is happening here is through scripting = at last a concrete position is being determined. Rather than just stating they like or not the idea of putting the Nerevev or whatever a few people are role-playing their responses, and that is a great way to develope!

Now, the whole point is that we are Developers and not players, so we have to cater for all different shades. Some peole here are approaching it not as though it is a choice between black or white, but stating that it can only be Black or refuting that and saying it can only be White. WELL WAKE UP, IT CAN BE both BOTH AND NEITHER - THE PLAYER MUST CHOOSE. IT IS YOUR DUTY AS DEVELOPERS AND MODDERS TO GIVE THE PLAYER a taste of ALL CHOICES in such a way that he/she is intrigued and entertained.

The Lore from Oblivion was days, weeks, months or years ago - many things may have changed now. Your duty now is to present those possible changes and make them sexy such that people are intrigued, fascinated, revolted, horrified, delighted and everything else as they meet them, are challenged by them and even overcome by them, or conquer them.

The Nerevarine WAS THOUGHT to be in Akavir. past tense, and it was mererly a thought. But he/she/it might actually have legs, transportation, magic, friends, enemies and even if once there might be anywhere else. All that is necessary to stay true to the Lore is introduce some evidence that corroborates or disputes the Lore - bu teither way acknowledges the source of that lore in some way.

I think that Bethsoft prefer that the Nerevarine does not enter Cyrodiil at the moment, so lets keep it that way. He/she/it can be or not be somewhere else.

Same for our old friend/nemesis Vivec. He/she has to be there in informational form. That is to say he/she and his/her fate cannot be ignored. What is necessary is that many different NPCs must have a different view of Vivec's fate and location. And the player should be able to find informational paths that lead to a living Vivec, or to a long dead Vivec, and everything in between in a variety of locations. And make it such that the player is never really certain which path if any is true. Then it becomes a test of faith = truly Vivecian. Even the Tribunal is dead, long live the New Tribunal

Lastly I know this is a complicated way to go about things, but no one will be satisfied otherwise. If is done well all will be astounded at our invention, and if it is done badly all will rail at us? Well maybe we will manage to land somewhere in between. but one thing that both Vivec and Azura seemed to agree on was that the day of the Tribunal itself is done, and that Vivec (however long he survived) would be taking a lesser role than that He/she had previously assumed and giving the dunmer a bit more freedom to choose new directions. So I expect that there will be more factions than ever :?

[Efcaz]

I just thought of a few ways to keep the nerevarines identity a seceret but still be able to meet him/her

1 (s)he wheres a hood and robe (But the hood makes a sadow that covers his face and the hands have gloves on them)

2 (s)he has a mask/helm that covers his/her face

3 (s)he has lernt some kind of shape shifting spell (that (s)he shows you if you dont belive him/her) and takes the default form of a dunmer but of the same sex as you


for 1 and 2 (s)he can be the same sex as you but with a unique accent so there is no way to tell what race (s)he is

[raggidman]

You might add to that a projected image ... as in a dream? Very in keeping with thte way Azura communicated. Also that way all can be concealed.

Man in the iron mask type thing = hood plus a daedra mask - there were 2 beauties to be found in Morrowind - this may be a third with a narsty set of surprises:
- it teleports you to a specific location;
- it gives you the power of dream projection in which you are portrayed as a cloaked figure with shining light coming from the eye-slits so the recipient of the dream cannot even see the shape or colour of the figure's eyes;
- the mask distorts the voice of the wearer;
- and you cannot get it off. ... no, not that , the mask!

What if Azura decided that her champion was needed elsewhere? She gives the Nerevarine the mask, but there is as yet no means of return!

So there you have the Nerevarine in a possibly unknown location ... and that leaves it open for the other mod to use the Nerevarine as they have planned according to the Lore as well as having a connection with the Nerevarine as needed - and the player can decide for him/herself if he/she really believes this is the Nerevarine or an imposter, with NO WAY of directly verifying the truth without visiting the other mod.

So that othermod can chooses to synchronise its events with Vvardenfell's = mutual support and publicity

[bob196045]

All good stuff :goodjob:


I think we've covered at least 6 million ways we could bring Nerevarine back to Vv, but I do not believe we have given any serious discussion as to "Why" .... maybe I just missed it. hrug:

I can think of a couple of reasons, I know Raggidman has some similar ideas

I think overall this discussion has been going on for way to long and a decision should be made "yes" or "no"

If the decision is yes then we can figure out a reason why and debate that

If it is no, than lets move on to something else

Regardless, lets make a decision and call it "Final"

So I think a voting post is in order, simple no debating, just.. yes or no

I still and always will disagree with bringing Vivec back in any way other than dreams


Enjoy
Bob

[raggidman]

With all due respect bob - you just hit the nail on the head so hard you buried it. Back up a wee bit and start agin.

The next question is:

Why would the Nerevarine return in some form or other?




A few ideas to get this started:

As stated - if the Nerevarine has the mask with the powers described then a reason would be:
- because Azura feels she has not entirely finished with Morrowind
and other or intertwined reasons would be:
- because (go on, hate this bob) Vivec is still around, somewhere
- because (go on, lo0ve this bob) Vivec is no longer around and 'something must fill the gap'
- because as Vivec stated / desired the Nerevarine is becomming a Saint and cannot be totally severed from the dunmer
- because the Nerevarine has become tied in some mystical and unfathomable way to the Heart, or to the cleansed Power of the Heart
- because the player will decide if he/she believes that the Nerevarine does or does not want to remain attached to Morrowind.

You see it is not for us as modders to decide what the player believes about the Nerevarine. What our task and duty and delight must be is:

To mod all the above choices in and more in order to give the player the choice - as we each of us has the choice here!

But we will have to do it in a very sneaky, clever, subltle, underhanded way way with deeple thinkness or no matter what we do, or how we presentit we will get laughed at, derided, rejected and taken off everyones' Christmas wish list

[bob196045]

Good Point, the why should be answered first

I think you have some legit reasons for discussion

I don't hate the Vivec is still around scenerio, I just feel that because the player had the choice to kill or not, we should leave well enough alone and not bring Vivec back at all

I would actually enjoy bringing Vivec back, it would give many more options and scenerios to play with, but alas as above, the players will say "I killed Vivec in Morrowind" how can he/she return ? others will argue "I did not kill Vivec in Morrowind, where is he/she?

Both these can be answered in the same 2 part manner

part 1 Vivec is not brought into ES4
part 2 Rumor of his/her death or his/her disappearance

In other words NPC's throughtout the region can say (via rumor)

Vivec has: run away/hid/escaped/gone on vacation....whatever you want

and other can say (via rumor)

I heard Vivec was dead
The Nerevarine killed Vivec
Vivec died in a battle with Nerevarine

However you want to put it

To me:

Their is no doubt that the Nerevarine has NOT completed the prophecy and that Azura would use this person to continue on.

Since ES4 does not allow for the player to play the Nerevarine Role, his/her return would naturally be as a mentor/council....

just my thoughts


Enjoy
Bob

[raggidman]

Well it just so happens I have a teasing solution to your Vivec must be dead or gone:

The Emmissary

A being arrives in Vivec - he claims to be Vivec's Emmisary - his proof is that he has many of the powers of Vivec, and he looks exactly like Vivec. In addition he has a lot of letters of introduction from Vivec to various people, and those people all corroberate the veracity of those letters. But who is this emmisary really?

Strange things are happening and the Emmmisary seems to know about them - he often has solutions - he seems to know things only the God could know ... but what is he really? what are his real intentions and objectives?

See bob - you can have your cake and eat it! I'm sure you can see the possibilities ...