Vivec and Nerevarine

[bob196045]

Its not my Vive must be dead or gone

Its the players, and he is either dead or he's not

The only way to satisfy both possibilities is to keep him out of the future (which is where we are)

His power, thats another story in itself, were did Vivec get his power
Lore says he was just a council of Nerevar until the time where he and the other Tribunal used the powers of the heart and tools to make themselves devine, once Nerevarine "destroyed" <(thats another issue in itself) he/she became mortal again

Did he/she create and Emmissary of his/her self ? Possibly

So option A is available


Enjoy
Bob

[raggidman]

Ooooh - prevarication bob

You have just reclaimed your position re Vivec = your Vivec!

And to keep Vivec dead does not actually satisfy anyone except those who insist that they killed Vivec and just because he vas a god with powers beyond mortal comprehension gives no possibility he survived.

It never occured to such thinkers that they might have fought a simulacrum of Vivec? Or an imposter? After all who introduced you to Vivec?

Well they are entitle to insist that they play in such an outcome fo rthemselves, but I DID NOT KILL VIVEC - SO I INSIST HE IS ALIVE!

Cor! Don'y I shout loudly?

There is only one way forward that can satisfy all semi-reasonable players - a quest that can establish either:
- the killing of Vivec by the Nerevarine or
- the continuing existance of Vivec.
With both options possible and scripts that support the different sets of outcomes and ongoing changes in the world that differ for either, including the possibility of seeing the dead body of Vivec or meeting the live Vivec and interacting with him.

The Emissary could be one route to achieve this. He/she could be Vivec or lead the player to Vivec's corpse.


Lost Godhood?
You insist that Vivec lost his godhood, but I think that if you read the Apochrypha then you would have seen that Vivec saw a sort of demi-god-hood for himself, and the intention to remain in the background and re-establish something more on the Ancient lines with Saints being the focus of belief.

What must be considered is the nature of the shrines ... here's my little theorie - they were mechanical artifacts that drew on belief and actions to turn the substance and spirit into a source of mana an dthen apply that in a new way according to whatever power/spell they were inbued with.

So when you pray to a Saint you receive that spell - despite the fact that the Saints were dead and did not manifest ... unlike the Tribunal members

And I wonder if they were Dwemer inventions? Or from what source both the Dunmer and Dwemer go them?

If this is true then maybe Vivec misled the player about the waining of the power of the Tribunal - so long as people go to pray at the Shrines he will receive a portion of power from their belief ... and maybe thus he inherited the power from the dead Tribunal members. That might make him stronger than ever.

Hows about the Heart was corrupt and was holding the Tribunal in thrall along with Dagoth Ur? Dagoth Ur was so power-hungry and sick that he could not see this. In this case Vivec would be desperate to be freed ... and maybe Azura saw his impending escape and moved to attempt to assassinate him before he could escape her wrath also?

Thus the Tools of Kagrenac that we have been told corrupted the Heart or the Power of the Heart may have done no such thing. They may have been draining to the user, but that is another matter ...

Then what Azura might have feared could be the power of the corrupt Heart Itself overwhelming Tamriel and even entering in to Oblivion, or her fellow Princes or th e9 discovering thetruth of the nature ofthe Heart andattempting to makeuse of it. In any case she would have lost worshippers if the corruption became so widespread, or universal ...

But this would need to be the subject of several Books an da lot of questing and discovery ... and whatever the player found or came to believe might still be a pack of lies that some being more powerful than the player placed there for serious reasons, or merely out of caprice

I will leave you with one last delicious thought. What if the real mature of the Heart was that, in order to become invulnerable to certain forms of attack, Azura placed Her own Heart in the Mountain, and the Dwemer's and the Tribunal's interference with it enraged and terrified Her?

The only way to safeguard it was to have it sent back to Oblivion and maybe then send it somewhere else. And that was accomplished by killing it?

[bob196045]

Your reading way to deep into this

I agree with you 100% that it would make very interesting and wonderful quests, which I truly would enjoy

but the fact is simple

regardless of our opinions or ideas or plans, Bethesda thought it best to leave Vivec out of ES4 for the very reason I have mentioned

Simply: some players killed Vivec in Morrowind and some did not

thats really it, nothing more, its my opinion, right or wrong its how I feel about it

If we voted on having Vivec in ES4 I would say No

but thats me, you might vote Yes

others might vote no and some others may vote yes and whatever the outcome is that is the way it would go, regardless of the fact that we might not agree with the outcome

I know you would try to persuade a yes vote

I would not however try to persuade a no vote

Why? Because I don't care...NO Because I can't debate..NO because I have no Basis...NO

Actually its because Bethesda did it for me, if you look around ES4 their is no Vivec, he's allready been written out

you might even want to call it the "safe way out"



Enjoy
Bob

[raggidman]

I believe there is some justice in your viewpoint bob ... and Bethsoft's wishes are important. But I wonder just how concrete they are? ...and why? What are they, have they changed?

Since Vv is likely to connect very directly with ST and ST has a limited pro-adult content bias I imagine that a sophisticated character such as Vivec will be seen as more acceptable in this environment than in the Wii wee-wee environment of the consoles?

Natch, if I offered Bethsoft $100 million today to develope the whole of Morrowind including a live Vivec they would do - believe it! In fact for that money they would probably agree that Vivec could be the Player Character and make wild passionate love with Chancellor Occato and Azura in the same bed.

Back to the real world bob Really I do not believe that Bethsoft have plans for Vivec one way or the other, and ST is no longer listed among their links, so we need not worry - they have had their Oblivion and eaten it. It has already gone the way they wanted it to, and beyond expectations. The monies have been invested and the star has had its day! Now it is a modest Cash Cow. They will not worry about what we do here. Actually there will be many among them (including shareholders) who would enjoy a Vv with a Vivec conundrum such as described, ... and a successful Morrowind with ST, Vv AND Vivec might actually stimulate controversy and more sales of Oblivion and Morrowind, without affecting their console contractual duties, so they will be delighted. That is why Razorwing was invited to interview for their Blog!

Business-wise this was a tiny investment with an unknowable but potentially pleasant pay-off. S~o, if you so desire, be freee, delight in great delights, mod and bedammed to Oblivion!

[Efcaz]

How about the son of vivec?

[raggidman]

:lmao: - I love it :bananarock: - but you will have to do some absolutely stupendous artwork, Lore research, etc, etc to convince the hard-nuts!

[bob196045]

Originally posted by raggidman
:lmao: - I love it :bananarock: - but you will have to do some absolutely stupendous artwork, Lore research, etc, etc to convince the hard-nuts!

hard-nuts!

That could quite possibly be me

A son ?
Interesting idea,
I suppose an offspring is not out of the question. not difficult, believable...yes ! Vivec was known to mate, the last off spring (?) that we know of is the Ruddy Man

What form would this new offspring take ?

Enjoy
Bob

[Vavilion]

I've just registered & sorry for my english ( i'm russian) but i didnot read all pages of this topic and i don't know did someone asked such questions already , so i wanna ask for myself:

1-will we meet Nerevarine life, i've heared he's gone to Akavir

2-i support your idea about that the Mehrunes' brother from another mother -- Molag Bal -- will lead the invation of Morrowind(Vavardenfell). But:
a) is it possible to meet Molag-boy as you have met Mehrunes Dagon

b) will character travel to his(Molag Bal's) oblivion plan(i've read somewhere that his world doesnt look happier than Mehrunes' : tombs&desert are everywhere, cages wiht captured souls etc.)

3-What role does YOUR OBLIVION CHAR playes in happening events on Vvardenfell (why da f*** he\she left calmed Cyrodiil and went to Dunmerett)

[Deeza]

Hello everyone. Deeza from the Black Marsh Team here.

Just a few thoughts on looking at this thread:

Vavilion has a very valid point - the player who goes to Morrowind in your mod will be the person predestined to be the Champion of Cyrodiil. They may already BE the Champion of Cyrodiil. That adds a very different dynamic to your mod.

Also, why constrain yourselves to a definitive statement about Vivec?

Everyone in Morrowind will have different theories about him, and provided that the Player never actually meets Vivec in person, nobody gets annoyed. Of course, he could definitely meet with Vivec SPIRITUALLY, but was it really a conversation? Or a dream? Mortals in Tamriel come back as Ghosts, so it is almost certain that even Sotha Sil and Almalexia exist in some form. As long as you keep it deliberately ambiguous, nobody can complain, and it will add to the controversy and interest. For example:

The Reformed Temple's official line would be that the Tribunal gave their powers to the Nerevarine to enable him to defeat Dagoth Ur then withdrew from the Mundus, an explanation which allows them to save face.

Yet the hardliner fundamentalists prefer to believe the stories that the Tribunal were murdered by the Nerevarine, and believe that their ghosts guide them to vengeance.

The Imperial Cult constantly spreads the belief that he is dead, in order to convert more Dunmer and spread their religion.

The Mages' Guild is less sure. It is a matter of considerable philosophical debate for them.

Yagrum Bagarn, the Last Living Dwarf, has many theories, but no evidence. He says he would have to examine the Tools of Kagrenac to be sure, but the Nerevarine has them.

The Telvanni have no opinion on the matter. They never liked the Temple, and are happy to see it in disarray. As long as Vivec doesn't show his face, they don't care either way.

The Hlaalu have embraced the Imperial Cult, so it isn't an issue for them.

The Redoran are, according to unofficial lore from the developers, in the middle of getting their arses kicked by Mehrunes Dagon, so metaphysical questions are probably the last thing on their minds.

The common folk have mixed views, typically less extreme versions of the above views.

[Seniosh]

Just popping in from Silgrad

There has been a lot of debate (11 pages of it :eek: ) on this topic, and it doesn't seem that much consensus was ever reached.

Should the Nerevarine be in the mod? let me recap the arguments for and against

- For

• Players want some connection to Morrowind
  
• The Nerevarine is supposed to guard and watch over Morrowind
  
• He's amazing, and it would be cool to see him
  

- Against

• The Nerevarine was different for everyone who played morrowind, there is no way to make "The" Nerevarine
  
• People will get pissed off at an "incorrect" portrayal of the Nerevarine
  
• Having the Nerevarine might overshadow the player's role in events
  
• Lore does say he's in Akavir (thinly veiled excuse though it is)
  

As for your other questions, i'm not sure what the Vv team's plans are for Molag Bal's personal involvement, but that's reallllly far in the future anyways. I do believe that there were plans to have the player visit Molag Bal's realm of coldharbour, but most projects besides Balmora are not being actively worked on