Xae's OST Contributions (BM Soundtrack)

[Ibsen's Ghost]

It sounds like you're both way more advanced in your skills and knowledge of game music than myself so I'll restrict myself to the following mini-remark in order to save myself looking stooopid =) :

Personally, I look at Oblivion from what I believe is a fresh point of view. I don't even play games much. In fact, the last thing I played was Oblivion and now I only mod for it and very rarely play it properly. Before that, I played the Thief series and Half-Life and pretty much nothing else for a period of about 10-15 years. Although I once owned Redguard, I have no other experience of the Elder Scrolls.

More importantly, I like the storytelling possibilities of games such as these more than anything else (although I did kind of get addicted to modding) and I get really annoyed when some lore monkey tells me I can't do something....like as if I can't produce a better storyline than the crappy Daedra invasion when I've been writing for years!?!

Yet this isn't to disregard lore monkeys (despite the unpleasant nickname) because they really make ideas come alive and you can't properly mod for OB without them.

However, my point is: don't be a slave to 'Soule-ism'. I noted Xae's 'FRAPS-exploring' remark but I took over this project partly because I felt it was as little restricted by what I regarded as feeble Bethesda conventions as any other. Experiment and reinvent! Both you guys are good enough to do that without paying lip service to institutions....

[mirrored]

Originally posted by Xaeaix
I think the change I suggested may be what you've already done but I didn't catch it until now. Before it sounded like a waltz (6/8, 3/4 etc) pattern (nevermind that for now) but now it sounds like a sequencing error. I can't seem to tap along to the time signature.

Strange, because I can and my metronome can:

http://www.box.net/shared/490byaaekl

Moreover I never had any listener with music knowledge having problems with catch up the 4/4 feel from this tune. The flute may be slightly off the beat at time, but did you ever seen an orchestra player playing EXACTLY to a conductor's hand, rhytmically even like a machine?



About "Soule-ism" - it was my call to bring more of JS feel to my tunes for Akavir. I didn't say that anyone that makes music for Oblivion/Morrowind mods should bring his feel to music. I only said he did outstanding job matching music to the visuals, in my humble opinion. You can try to make something like John Williams, Alan Silvestri Alexandre Desplat or James Newton Howard (or maybe some classical masters influence - Debussy?). Personally I tried the Howard Shore's LotR feel in the Akavir 2. It is all about the direction that would fit the visuals, whatever orchestral style.

Cheers,
Michal

[Xae]

Originally posted by mirrored
Strange, because I can and my metronome can:

http://www.box.net/shared/490byaaekl

Moreover I never had any listener with music knowledge having problems with catch up the 4/4 feel from this tune. The flute may be slightly off the beat at time, but did you ever seen an orchestra player playing EXACTLY to a conductor's hand, rhytmically even like a machine?

With the metronome in the background the piece sounds much more fluent but it also enhances the rhythmical inconsistency of the second phrase. It starts an eighth early, in other words it doesn't begin on the upbeat (like established by the first phrase) but instead on the downbeat like in 6/8 time. Like I mentioned, the flute line alone isn't sufficient to sustain the rhythm, particularly with mentioned complexity.

Then again, it may well be a matter of opinion. Usually I'd check some reference literature to make sure but I have none on this subject.

[nick_op]

I've just had a listen to your pieces Xaeaix, I've got surprisingly little in the way of feedback, but I'll see what I can do:

This Place
I liked the sense of scale at the beginning of this track, it made me feel overwhelmed, tiny, which I guess would fit well in Black Marsh. I have mixed feelings about the pizzicato strings, as I do quite like the contrast they provide to the intro, but I think they would be more effective if the original theme returned afterwards. More a matter of opinion, though, I think.

Neighbourland Sun
I liked the progressive nature of this piece, various different parts reminded me of games that I've played in the past (Onimusha springs to mind). I don't have much more to add, all of the parts flowed despite some of them being fairly different in nature. Seems like it describes a journey, so it should make for nice explore music.

Battle Tracks
No real specifics for these, I liked the sinister feel to them which was lacking in the vanilla Oblivion music. I was quite surprised to hear the Morrowind theme in the middle of Turn Around, though, it was a little jarring at first, though the twist at the end made it blend nicely with the rest of the song.

Dungeon Tracks
I enjoyed the similarity to the music in Thief for these tracks, I can imagine that one will feel rather tense exploring dungeons whilst listening to them. Horrific stuff, in an absolutely brilliant way!

Apologies for not having much feedback about the harmonic and melodic content - this type of music is a bit outside my experience as I'm primarily a classical pianist.

---

[/hr]
I'm going to have to agree with Xaeaix about your Explore 2 track, mirrored. Seems to me that after the anacrusis there's a bar of 5/8, then a bar of 3/8, then it moves into 4/4 time. I can, however, pick it out as 4/4 if I'm really strict with my counting.

I guess this effect is caused by the first part of the melody starting on the first beat of the bar, but the second phrase traveling though the bar line and the accent being on the 6th quaver in the first bar (thinking in 4/4 time). I do think it's a fantastic track none the less, I just found the beginning throws me off balance, and I find it hard to count in time unless I do so forcedly from the start.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

I'm enjoying these more with every listen. The gas-like sound at the start of hesitant is especially nice. I'm always in favour of anything in a dungeon track that sounds a little like it might come from the gameworld and makes the player spin around in confusion for a bit.... =)

[Koniption]

Gosh, you musicians speak Greek!! The way you're able to dissect each other's music using arcane terminology....tis witchcraft, I say! :O

Heheh, anyways, I listened to all the music, and it all sounds ok to me. I don't know enough about music to provide proper feedback, though, so my compliment might need to be taken with a grain of salt.

KP

[Ibsen's Ghost]

You're not alone, KP. It went right over my head too. =)

[Xae]

Alright, I think a change of plans is needed.

The public music was drafted after looking at screenshots of the BM cities. In my opinion, the cities that I saw didn't look very marsh-like at all but rather like the Oblivion standard (hence the neutral style of the music).

Now I've looked through many posts and thoroughly gone through the screenshots I could find. In my opinion, I could continue with the current style and it'd work, but I'd rather see more marsh in the soundtrack. The fundamental problem is how in Oblivion all individual area types follow the same pattern (the cities are all very similar, same goes for the others). Now, BM has some areas (Kothringi, Pholmolo etc) that are just screaming for their own individual music, where as some places (Gideon, Sloughpoint etc) are less individual in nature (though I recall a request for Gideon having creepy music).

This difference is difficult to battle with. BM's diversity needs appropriate diversity in the music (which, like mentioned, goes almost completely against Oblivion's musical style).

Two things, then. First, investigating the limitations of the scripts. I know using special music for individual areas is a go, but as far as I see it, the only way to replace the battle music is to remove the original, which would be a hassle. I think adding prefixes to the names of chunks would simplify the scripting immensely, and make it possible to group areas.

Second, how many types of areas are there in BM? The everglades looks like something out of Morrowind where as Blackwood is simply Oblivion. Which cities are unique and which aren't? To summarise, which zones would benefit from their own soundtrack?

The size of the soundtrack would be largely the same.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

My gut response is to say, "don't worry. We'd prefer the more original, marshy approach." This is be because the only regions we're working on so far are the five beta regions. If BM goes further then there will be much more marsh. It's just that we're working along the fringes of the main landscape at the moment that's giving you the impression that it's Oblivion-like. However, it's only the borderland of BM Blackwood that closely resembles Oblivion, except for the Baobab trees and weird flora that may not appear in some screenshots of unlandscaped terrain. There's actually a steady transition towards more original landscapes as we progress eastwards.

Regarding the music, I'm happy with simply adding the BM soundtracks. I know that may seem unambitious but many have tried to replace sounds directly and just found it too problematic. I'm not sure if SACarrow plans to work on the music as well for Silgrad Tower (he's in charge of dialogue and VA work at least) but he's probably a good one to speak to about such matters as he's very good with scripts and has experience in this field.

I wonder at the possibility of having explore musics for the different regions.... ?(

Anyway, the maps thread should help you to see where everything is: All Maps (REFERENCE ONLY - No Posting) . The grid maps further down are the most accurate ones where all the regions are separated into colours. As far as the beta regions go:

• Blackwood - has Gideon, Sloughpoint, Rockguard & Hixinoag (of which only Hixinoag is 'ethnically Argonian'...original, in other words)
  
• Parchlands - both Stonewastes and Chasepoint lie right on the borders of Blackwood and Darkmoor respectively. These settlements use Oblivion architecture as they are the creations of the older team. Soulrest, however, is Kothringi and very original.
  
• Naga-Cradle Jungle - Tenmar Wall and Stormhold are jungle-like but again use OB architecture retexes. Pholmolo is ethnically Argonian and Glok-Chuba (in development) is ethnically Paatru (a frog people).
  
• Rottmere Everglades - Swamplands containing only very Argonian (and very original) settlements such as Kangumabog, Kulu-Hees and Go-Ja Morgoa. Only the latter has a complete exterior but it reflects to some degree how the others will develop.
  
• Darkmoor - This region is not generated yet but will contain Rockgrove and has Chasepoint on the border. It will contain lots of small hills and lakes and fog will hug close to the dark heather. Large swamp trees will give way to mangrove trees in the swamps as you move closer to the coast.
  

IMO the Everglades is more typical of the marshland that will predominate in the worldspace so, if you're planning music in the way you suggested, we'll need one for here without a doubt. The jungle will also continue along the northern fringes. Parchlands and Darkmoor are unusual but there is potential to use any music created for them in other coastland and hinterland regions.

[Xae]

Originally posted by Ibsen's Ghost
I wonder at the possibility of having explore musics for the different regions.... ?(

From what I recall, the streamMusic function can be executed when a player enters an area (gameMode tied to an if-clause) with a name beginning with a certain string. For instance, let's say that the mod ends up with four different music regions. Chunks from region one would have the prefix "MR1" and chunks from region two would have the prefix "MR2" and so on. Now, there's a way to make a song play depending on the current song progress, which would mimic the effect of randomisation. With an added if-clause to make sure the player isn't in combat, of course.

Combat replacement could work similarly. First, an if-clause to check combat status, and then another if-clause tied to a sort of master prefix for BM areas (so the full prefix for music region three would be "BM_MR3"). The script would read: when in combat in BM play this music. With the progress thing for a sense of randomisation, of course.

Dungeon areas would have the prefix "BM_D#" (replace or remove the '#' depending on whether or not different dungeons should have different music) and battle music would hence work, as well as the dungeon music, like the explore music.

Public music prefix would be something like "BM_P#".

To streamline all this I think a public function with variables would be most appropriate, though that's outside of what I know of the Oblivion scripts. Maybe IS will chime in with some clarifications.

I suppose changing/adding these prefixes could be a bit of annoying work, but compared to adding in every single chunk in the script (which could impact performance) I think it's a much more preferable way to go. It all adheres to the one most important rule: if you're going to do something, do it properly.

For now, I'm going make a mental map of the BM locales while waiting for my replacement sample disks (a whole bunch of woodwind patches are broken, for no apparent reason). I'll PM IS for advice on this scripting business.