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+---- Thread: Morrowind Province Proposal (/Thread-Morrowind-Province-Proposal)
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Morrowind Province Proposal - Vrenir - 04-27-2006
Having thrown out the idea of rescaling the Imperial Province, and finding that it had more life to it that expected prior to being largely discarded, I?d like to now present my other far-fetched idea, hopefully not quite so far-fetched.
As many have pointed out, we have bitten off a big chunk of work, especially the Vvardenfell group. One way that I think we can streamline and increase cohesion, is to reduce the scope of Morrowind by using Cyrodiil?s scale. Before everyone jumps up and flames this thread for discrediting their projects (being Silgrad Tower, Reich Parkeep, Blacklight, and Vvardenfell), please take the time to hear me out.
Cyrodiil is supposed to be the largest province, and following it?s scale would make the others pitifully small, if we go by the earlier maps. But what if we, along with Bethseda?s example in TESIV, shunk Cyrodiil?s size but only in comparison to its neighbors? What if Morrowind Province was about ? or more the size of Cyrodiil? Well, then it?d be nicer, but it?d still be impossible to cram all of the little towns and cities in without making them all on top of each other! True, but what if we cut or consolidated many of those little towns? Without really doing any more work than already planned, we could hit more of the major features and do the whole province of Morrowind, making it fit better with the other provincial mods on this site.
For example, why do Ganar Mok and Hla Oad need to exist separately? What is so special about each that it must be unique? Yes they had it that way in TESIII, but if we?re working in TESIV and we?re trying to streamline and even re-envision parts of Morrowind, why not simply combine them? We?d end up with one Hlallu port near the northern edge of the Oadi Mouth. And what of all the Imperial forts? Most are for all intents and purposes clones of each other in different areas. Why not cut some of them? Moonmoth and Pelegiad are redundant, especially with the Hlallu so closely-tied to the Empire, so why not get rid of Moonmoth? Do we really need all of the little fishing villages in the northwest? Let?s scratch Khuul and Ald Velothi (or reduce Ald Velothi to a single tower or ruin). We could do that with a lot of little places around Vvardenfell, and thereby leave large chunks of wilderness intact while keeping all the major distinctive features? A lot of the small cities could also easily be reduced to town-size. I, for example, would be more than willing to cut half the size of Suran and reduce it to the seedy area/marketplace with the manor overhead. We could do the same with Pelegiad, Vos, Gnisis, and many of the small Telvani places centered on towers. Ebonheart could also be relocated back to the mainland, where it has been lore-wise in every game except TESIII, and there it would put in a new and interesting locale while freeing up wilderness on Vvardenfell.
For Silgrad Tower, Reich Parkeep, and Blacklight, I would suggest the same scaling or cutting treatment for places like Cormaris View, Ebbain, and Legio Argonis. The northwest of Morrowind then becomes a place of three powerful fortress cities that safequard the province but have little in the way of outlying satellites. I would also suggest trying to keep the cities the size of the Imperial City and Vivec or smaller. Already, the Reich Parkeep Alpha Release has two sections, and with an added two or three Redoran sections below, I think it would be perfect. Blacklight could be about the same size and Silgrad a little larger. I also strongly suggest an official merger of the exterior work on these mods along with Vvardenfell, if only to increase cohesion. Each city interior is obviously separate and should be handled by the original team for that area exclusively.
But? but? why? Simply put, the project as it exists is downright huge and I think that we could get a result of the same quality with less, maybe even of greater quality. Think of what our resources could be freed up to include in Morrowind? We could add in Mournhold/Almalexia, Firewatch (a fortress instead of a city), Port Telvanis, Necrom, Tear, and Narsis! Couple that with the existing cities of Silgrad Tower, Blacklight, and Reich Parkeep, plus the surviving Vivec, Balmora, Ald?ruhn, and Sadrith Mora, and we have a city list not much larger than that of the core game, but manage to hit all the distinctive places in our province!
The ability to mod factions also becomes greatly simplified if we do this. No more do we have to have separate House quest-lines for each mod. We can use all locations in Morrowind for them. And what of the Main Quests? I haven?t heard of one for any except Silgrad Tower and Vvardenfell. We could easily expand Vvardenfell?s to be the Morrowind Province Main Quest and make the Silgrad Tower one a precursor/local quest. (Help your House with the Silgrad problem, then as tensions heighten following that and the Caldera situation, a House war breaks out.)
An added bonus is that a distinctive flavor of Morrowind emerges slightly different from that in TESIII. Namely, in our setup, the Dunmer are markedly city-dwelling folk. In Cyrodiil, people live in cities, but there are often outlying towns and communities, but in contrast, Morrowind has larger more congested cities with few villages. All are closely tied to their Houses, with each House basically having at least one actual city and one or two small settlements.
As a summing up: I propose that we collectively as the Morrowind-centered mods of Beyond Cyrodiil, adopt a scale very similar to that of the core game, make this believably by dropping or shrinking the size of small towns and unimportant locations, and use our freed-up resources to include the other few major cities of our province.
Below, you will find a comparison list between the existing Cyrodiil (according to the online Alchemist?s Map accessible as a hosted site of Planet Elder Scrolls) and my proposed merger and expansion of the Morrowind mods into a Provincial Mod. It includes cities, how big they are, what style they are in (for the Morrowind ones), as well as town lists, and fort lists. (Note that there are a lot of little things listed under Towns with Cyrodiil that I doubt are really towns, but I think that the list still gives the idea I want to convey as far as possible level of saturation with locales.)
CYRODIIL
Cities (9)
Cyrodiil (10 cells)
Imperial Prison
Market District
Elven Gardens District
Arena
Arboretum
Temple District
Talos Plaza
Palace
Archane University
Waterfront
Bruma (2 cells)
Commercial District
Castle Bruma
Chorrel (2 cells)
Commercial District
Castle Chorrel
Anvil (4 cells)
Lighthouse
Dock
Commercial District
Castle Anvil
Kvatch (1 cell)
Skingrad (2 cells)
Commercial District
Castle Skingrad
Bravil (2 cells)
Commercial District
Castle Bravil
Leyawiin (2 cells)
Commercial District
Castle Leyawiin
Cheydinhall (2 cells)
Comercial District
Cheydinhall
Towns (30)
Weye
Aleswell
Bleaker?s Way
Applewatch
Cloud Ruler Temple
Weynon Priory
Odiil Farm
Hackdirt
Brinde Home
Gottlesfont Priory
Weatherleah
Shardrock
Shetcombe Farm
Lord Drad?s Estate
Whitmona Farm
Gweden Farm
Water?s Edge
Border Watch
White Stallion Lodge
Greyland
Blankenmarch
Cadlew Chapel
Cropsford
Drakelowe
Harlan?s Watch
Knights of the Thorn Lodge
Roland Jenseric?s Cabin
Harm?s Folly
Lord Rugdumph?s Estate
Temple of the Ancestor Moths
Forts (50)
Sancre Tor
Fort Reyles
Fort Coldcorn
Fort Ash
Fort Empire
Fort Caractacus
Fort Nikel
Fort Wooden Hand
Fort Carmala
Fort Ontus
Fort Dirich
Fort Hastral
Fort Linchal
Fort Wariel
Fort Sutch
Crowhaven
Fort Strand
Fort Istitrus
Fort Vlastarus
Fort Virtue
Fort Roebeck
Fort Blackboot
Fort Homestead
Fort Alessia
Fort Variella
Fathis Aren?s Tower
Fort Irony
Fort Nomore
Fort Redman
Fort Blue Blood
Fort Doublecross
Fort Teleman
Fort Redwater
Fort Gold-Throat
Fort Cuptor
Fort Felecia
Fort Entius
Fort Facien
Fort Grief
Fort Aurus
Fort Cedrian
Fort Sejanus
Arkved?s Tower
Fort Naso
Fort Scinia
Fort Magia
Fort Urasek
Fort Chalman
Fort Farragut
Fort Horunn
MORROWIND
Cities (12)
Vivec (9 cells) [tan Velothi]
Foreign Quarter
Hlallu
Redoran
Telvani
Arena
St. Olms
St. Pheldon
High Fane
Palace
Balmora (5 cells) [Hlallu]
Commercial District
Labortown
Labortown Ghetto
Manor District
Docks
Ald?ruhn (4 cells) [Redoran]
Skar
Manor District
Marketplace
Barracks
Sadrith Mora (4 cells) [Telvani]
Tower
Marketplace
Docks and Inn
Wolverine Hall
Caldera (3 cells) [Imperial]
Castle Caldera
Commerical District
Mining Camp
Blacklight (4-5 cells) [Imperial]
Reich Parkeep (4-5 cells) [Imperial and Redoran]
Silgrad Tower (8 cells) [Hlallu or grey Velothi]
Narsis (6 cells) [Hlallu]
Administrative District
Manor District
Arena
Grad Marketplace and Plaza
Commercial District
Docks
Tear (4 cells) [Dres]
Great Hall
Manor District
Plaza
Commercial District
Necrom (4 cells) [white Volothi]
Temple
Plaza and Crypts
Commercial District
Lighthouse
Almalexia (6 cells) [Indoril]
Temple
Palace
Manor District
Plaza
Grand Bazaar
Commerical District
Towns (16)
Seyda Neen [Imperial]
Pelegiad [Imperial]
Gnisis [Redoran]
Suran [Hlallu]
Ganar Mok / Hla Oad [swamp hut]
Vos / Tel Vos [tan Velothi]
Zainib Camp [Ashlander]
Urukshu Camp [Ashlander]
________ Camp [Ashlander]
Bal Falls [Hlallu]
Dragon Glade [Indoril]
Bal Oyra [Telvani]
Kraggenmore [Redoran]
Legio Argonis [Imperial and Argonian]
Random Dres Town [Dres]
Forts (8 with doubtlessly more additions later)
Fort Buckmouth [ruined Imperial]
Ebonheart [Imperial]
Firewatch [Imperial]
Chimer Fortresses x ? [Chimer]
Oadi Plateau [Hlallu]
Maar Gan [Redoran]
Tel Mora [Telvani]
Tel Fyr [Telvani]
- Axen - 04-27-2006
Going by TES4's scale will cause lots of problems and frustration due to not having any room... especially the Silgrad Tower/Blacklight people. Vvardenfell would be the size of the land between the inner towns, and, judging by how much the (unfortunately small) Imperial City takes up, the Vvardenfell team will have lots of problems too (just imagine how horribly shrunk Vivec would have to become). It'll be a much better decision to use TES3's scale... we don't HAVE to rescale Cyrodiil too, though it would be nice.
Content was already cut out of vanilla TES4 to put more effort on the game's engine, and I'm fairly disgusted with that. Let us NOT do something like that.
- X23 - 04-27-2006
So you want to make the wilderness smaller AND make the towns smaller. That would suck. We can just say that Bethesda'ss scale was wrong and scale it the normal way as if you were scaling it to a larger Cyrodiil. From what I've heard, generating empty land is easy. The Lotr mod had shots of their heightmap ingame. It was blank, but they could already generate a huge amount of land ready to be detailed.
How about instead of making it smaller and removing clones and stuff, how about make it bigger and make the clones unique instead. Every mod should have a main quest too.
And making cities smaller would be bad too. I liked the idea of making it bigger. not making everything to scale with small Cyrodiil. We should do our best. Not just what bethesda could do.
- Razorwing - 04-27-2006
Vrenir: I don't see why the scale used by the TES4: Vvardenfell team to recreate Vvardenfell has to have any bearing on the scale Silgrad Tower uses to recreate our part of the mainland. Especially not when the scale you suggest would, in my opinion, have serious negative consequences for us. We need to have big cities with plenty of room for stories, quests, adventure and things to do and see.
We need to have smaller outlying settlements to fuel certain quests and provide havens out in the wild. And we need to have plenty of wilderness so we can mod as many caves, dungeons, tombs and other locations we want without everything feeling like a megacity. Making Silgrad Tower the greatest and most entertaining mod we possibly can is a goal so much, much more important than something as trivial as the scale of Cyrodiil.
Since the world map is a painted picture I don't see any problem with the mods having different actual scales and at the same time use a world map with a true scale if our mods are played together. To put it bluntly, I don't really care what scale is used for Vvardenfell, and I'd be happy if you guys cared as little about the scale we use.
- Axen - 04-27-2006
Quote:Originally posted by RazorwingThe rest of us on the Vvardenfell team are for a TES3 scale, you know.
Vrenir: I don't see why the scale used by the TES4: Vvardenfell team to recreate Vvardenfell has to have any bearing on the scale Silgrad Tower uses to recreate out part of the mainland. Especially not when the scale you suggest would, in my opinion, have serious negative consequences for us. Since the world map is a painted picture I don't see any problem with the mods having different actual scales and at the same time use a world map with a true scale if our mods are played together. To put it bluntly, I don't really care what scale is used for Vvardenfell, and I'd be happy if you guys cared as little about the scale we use.
- Razorwing - 04-27-2006
Quote:Originally posted by Arklon
The rest of us on the Vvardenfell team are for a TES3 scale, you know.
Mm I had a feeling that was the case, so I phrased myself to Vrenir "the scale you suggest", but at the same time I still have the opinion that the scale used by one team doesn't have to affect the other one's.
- Vrenir - 04-27-2006
I frnakly don't care all that much either. I just figure that if I have an idea that might be helpful in some way, it's best to at least throw it out. That way, it can be used, discarded, or tweaked. In the end, hopefully something out of the many ideas put forth brings about something more beneficial for everyone. That's my theory at any rate, so don't feel bad about telling me that this is a terrible idea. I'll help with and play whatever is produced by this site.
- masbeth - 04-27-2006
Quote:Originally posted by X23
From what I've heard, generating empty land is easy. The Lotr mod had shots of their heightmap ingame. It was blank, but they could already generate a huge amount of land ready to be detailed.
i dont think he's aruging that it wouldnt be hard to just make miles of blank land, but just trying to make sure we don't bite off more than we can chew. The bigger we make the game, the more work that has to be done. in the same time a smaller world can be done with great detail, where a bigger world would be bland. Much in the same way a game like everquest is huge, but the lands are mostly barren.
I'm not sure what scale we should use, but we should just definatly think that as people say "lets just make it all bigger" realize that that will just make teh mod take longer, and cud ultimatly ruin the mod if it becomes to great. Remeber the time frame that bethesesda took to make the games, and they are professional game delovopers who work time. Just something to think over as the scale issue is thought out
- Axen - 04-27-2006
Quote:Originally posted by masbethYeah, except with TES4, Bethesda spent most of their time with the game's engine rather than making good CONTENT.
Quote:Originally posted by X23
From what I've heard, generating empty land is easy. The Lotr mod had shots of their heightmap ingame. It was blank, but they could already generate a huge amount of land ready to be detailed.
I dont think he's aruging that it wouldn't be hard to just make miles of blank land, but just trying to make sure we don't bite off more than we can chew. The bigger we make the game, the more work that has to be done. in the same time a smaller world can be done with great detail, where a bigger world would be bland. Much in the same way a game like everquest is huge, but the lands are mostly barren.
I'm not sure what scale we should use, but we should just definatly think that as people say "lets just make it all bigger" realize that that will just make the mod take longer, and cud ultimatly ruin the mod if it becomes to great. Remeber the time frame that bethesesda took to make the games, and they are professional game delovopers who work time. Just something to think over as the scale issue is thought out
In any case, the TES3 scale is probably the best one to use. Gives us a good bit of space, while also not making it too big for us to work with.
- Rodan - 04-27-2006
Why don't we waint until the first landrun is released (having trouble with the main computer until then) then we can have an actual discussion about it.
