Velothi Tile Set

[Razorwing]

I'm sure many of the traps that come with Oblivion can be used in these interiors as well. Logs and boulders rolling down ramps are pretty straight-forward, and I'm sure there are others that'd work too that Bethesda haven't shown us yet. We'll see when it comes out, I imagine.

I think the basic tileset is the most important thing because the player is likely to move around a lot in those surroundings, and even a small flaw would be much more noticeable just because so many players would experience it on so many occasions. I know spankybus won't let that happen though

[spankybus]

One thing I plan to do is make a straight section of wall that has indentations in both sides where bodies would have been laid to rest. I was thinking it would be really cool to have the many bodies come alive and attack you when you are in the deepest section of the Tomb, say you grab a prized treasure of the family, and the denizens aren't happy about it...not sure how that can happen, that's a scripting issue, as far as making the mobs just lay there until they're triggered.

My idea is, when you use my tiles to make tombs, they will finally look like real tombs, but i still want them to feel like Velothi Architecture. There will also be wall sectins without the bedding slabs for regular construction usage, ie not a tomb.

The orignal Morrowind straight section was like 140 faces, mine is about 650 or 700, which is consistent with what some next-gen engines can push, I think, i rather start high and reduce if needs be, then go the other route. Since they are contained interiors without the open Line of sight that the surface world has, it should be just fine. :goodjob:

BTW, if you have textures, get them to me and I will render the tiles with em

[Quentin Fortune]

If this can wait until the weekend, I'll see what I can do. It would be very helpful to know what sizes you need and if you are content with square textures or need some rectangulars as well.

Greetings

Quentin

[Razorwing]

spankybus: Sounds like a really cool idea I think. One would need a plausible explanation why the guards of the tomb are resting instead of attacking the intruder on sight. Hmm. Perhaps it could be an abandoned tomb, belonging to a family line which have died out, and the last act of the final protector of the tomb was to place the guards in hibernation, to conserve the magical bonds for a real emergency (such as someone stealing the main payoff of the tomb). A solution would perhaps be to have inanimate skeletons at the start, to stop the player from killing them while they're helpless, which are then replaced by real-live skeletons. But a great effect would be if the inanimate skeletons were replaced by skeleton NPCs, like the zombie race in TES III. Because then the skeletons could be made to think the indentations are beds, and set to sleep there until the player gets within a certain range, and then the player would get to see the skeletons come to life as they awakened from their slabs. That'd be fun to set up.

But as far as I know, the Dunmer only have one way to dispose of their dead - cremation of the bodies and placed in urns. They don't have caskets or graveyards or stuff like that, so the bodies in the indentations would have to be undead guardians rather than normal corpses. Not that it'll be a problem, but we really need to use plenty of urns in Velothi tombs to portray that culture accurately, otherwise it just won't feel like a Dunmer tomb (at least to me).

Quentin Fortune: Right on :bananarock:

[spankybus]

Originally posted by Quentin Fortune
If this can wait until the weekend, I'll see what I can do. It would be very helpful to know what sizes you need and if you are content with square textures or need some rectangulars as well.

Greetings

Quentin

Whichevers mate, they don't even have to be finished products, just something to see how it will look ruffly and then it will be clear how 'Velothii' it feels.

I guess 256x256? or even a 128x128, square textures should be find it they cause a problem, a little cut/paste/blend in PBP will make em rectangular enough for gov't work.

Edit 2005.11.03 19:20:

Originally posted by Razorwing
spankybus:
But as far as I know, the Dunmer only have one way to dispose of their dead - cremation of the bodies and placed in urns. They don't have caskets or graveyards or stuff like that, so the bodies in the indentations would have to be undead guardians rather than normal corpses. Not that it'll be a problem, but we really need to use plenty of urns in Velothi tombs to portray that culture accurately, otherwise it just won't feel like a Dunmer tomb (at least to me).

Tis a Faair Point, and might invalidate my thinking. Now that I am thinking aboutit, I never remember seeing anything except Urns. Hmmm.

What about the Empire? Do they Bury or Burn? If they Bury, it could make for some neat transitions....here is what i mean.

Dumner have burned their Dead for thousands of Years. The ancient tombs would all reflect this in their architecture and the tombs being filled with Urns.

Over time, as tombs need more and more room, htey are dug deeper and deeper. As the centuries go on, architectural style changes, and you can track a cultures architecture in its tombwork by who it evolves the further you go in.

Now, If the impire has assumed control of Morrowind, and begun enforcing its Culture (active or passive enforcement), Some Dunmer might have adopted the Burial system, and as you enter those tombs, you pass sections of anchient looking passages, very anchient looking it is structures, then you will transition into the more recent passages, the walls and cieling would begin to look more modern, and instead of Urns you get Bodies..

Frankly, It might be more work than its worth, but I just see problems and suggest solutions. They may or may not be what you are lookin for, so no worries. I think the evolution of tombs would be lost on most player, who don't sit around and dwell on this goofy crap like I do lol.

If a wall was to have slabs, with dormant skele's and zombies, they would be the decendants, not the guardians. There would still be guardians roaming the tombs, giving you crap, and making you fight...you get to the end, with all the guards defeated, and take the big prize from the side of the grand Sarcauphogas (spelling?) and, with no one else left to defend it, the family itself comes after you...talk about an Indiana Jones moment, maybe even a combo of this with the tomb trying to seal itself as per Black Knights Suggestion, you really give it a HOLY SHIT moment that gamers just love muhahaha :lmao:

[Ben Vagara]

Originally posted by spankybus

Originally posted by Razorwing
spankybus:
But as far as I know, the Dunmer only have one way to dispose of their dead - cremation of the bodies and placed in urns. They don't have caskets or graveyards or stuff like that, so the bodies in the indentations would have to be undead guardians rather than normal corpses. Not that it'll be a problem, but we really need to use plenty of urns in Velothi tombs to portray that culture accurately, otherwise it just won't feel like a Dunmer tomb (at least to me).

Tis a Faair Point, and might invalidate my thinking. Now that I am thinking aboutit, I never remember seeing anything except Urns. Hmmm.

The ashlanders have mummies... and there are a couple of velothi tombs that have skeletons lying on the altars (instead of urns). But urns do seem to be the preferred approach for some.... but if urns contain all the ashes, what is in the ash pits? Perhaps only the most notable ancestors reside in the urns, and the common family members end up in the pits...

And from the screenies of Oblivion, I suspect that Imperials bury rather than burn, since we see plenty of headstones in cemetaries (implying burials) and catacombs.

Originally posted by spankybus
If a wall was to have slabs, with dormant skele's and zombies, they would be the decendants, not the guardians. There would still be guardians roaming the tombs, giving you crap, and making you fight...you get to the end, with all the guards defeated, and take the big prize from the side of the grand Sarcauphogas (spelling?) and, with no one else left to defend it, the family itself comes after you...talk about an Indiana Jones moment, maybe even a combo of this with the tomb trying to seal itself as per Black Knights Suggestion, you really give it a HOLY SHIT moment that gamers just love muhahaha

And just as you return from desecrating the family tomb.... the living descendants from the local village attack you! Or better yet, they hunt you down... Ah, the dangers of graverobbing!

Ben

[Razorwing]

Good points Ben. Here's some stuff I dug up on the good old Imperial Library site. It's interesting how easy it is to forget facts and stray from the beaten path, and I think I even learned a couple of new things by reading up on the matter.

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[blockquote]In "Ancestors and the Dunmer":
The human populations of Tamriel associate Dunmeri ancestor worship and spirit magic with necromancy; in fact, this association of the Dark Elves with necromancy is at least partly responsible for the dark reputation of Dunmer throughout Tamriel. This is generally an ignorant misconception, for necromancy outside the acceptable clan rituals is a most abhorrent abomination in the eyes of the Dunmer. [...] Imperial Policy officially recognizes the practices of Dunmeri ancestor veneration and spirit magic as a religion, and protects their freedom to pursue such practices so long as they do not threaten the security of the Empire. Privately, most Imperial officials and traders believe Dark Elf ancestor worship and displays of remains are barbaric or even necromantic.
Of particular interest is perhaps this passage:
The upkeep of family tombs [...] has also fallen into disfavor, as very few remains have been buried in these tombs and shrines since the Armistice. In recent years most Dunmer venerate a small portion of their ancestor's remains kept at a local temple.
To me, that sounds like strong evidence that all Dunmer tombs are more or less abandoned these days, and that the modern Dunmers prefer to use Temples for their ancestor worship and burial. Perhaps by cremating their dead in the Temple's ash pits.

In "Chance's Folly" we learn that Velothi tombs (in this case 'Heran Ancestral Tomb') can have both traps and treasures. The passage '...he had cut through the living and undead guardians of the dungeon...' seems to indicate that tombs can be guarded both by living people as well as undead, but if memory serves me right, in reality few if any tombs were ever guarded by living people.

In "On the Preparation of the Corpse" there is mention of both graves and ash pits, which I find surprising since I've never seen a Dunmer grave in the sense of normal graves. There's objects in the game that resemble a cross with skulls, but I can't remember ever seeing those used to mark a grave.

"Blasphemous Revenants" highlights how bonewalkers, bonelords and other undead provide service to their living kin.

In "The Doors of the Spirit", this passage can perhaps highlight why the Dunmer doesn't bury their dead: '...The dead are not under the earth. Their spirits are in the restless wind, in the fire's voice, in the foot-smoothed step...' If I interpret that correctly, they would feel that burying their dead would tie them down or hinder them in some spiritual sense.

From the "TES3 Encyclopaedia", the dialogue topic "Ancestral Tomb" reveals:
The Dunmer bury their dead in such tombs. It is best to avoid offending the Dunmer by entering them. There are rules to govern such things, but I do not fully understand them.

And the dialogue topic "Halls of the Dead" reveals:
That might be any Dunmer ancestral tomb. The ancient Dunmer word for ancestral tomb is 'cardruhn'. 'Ruhn' translates as 'home' or 'hearth-hall'. 'Card' means 'undeparted kin-wardens'. [/blockquote]

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black[/hr]

Perhaps we can digest this into statements we can all agree upon? If so, here are my suggestions. Feel free to comment them or pitch your own.
1) The vast majority of Velothi tombs are abandoned. Most Dunmers alive today use Temples rather than Tombs for their ancestor worship.
2) The vast majority of Velothi tombs are guarded by undead. Some are guarded by daedra, and a handful by living people. A few tombs have been invaded by vampires.
3) Except for the Ashlanders, Dunmers in the past cremated their dead and either left them in ashpits or confined their ashes into urns, and left them in their family's Ancestral Tomb.

spankybus: As the book "Ancestors and the Dunmer" says that the tombs haven't been used much since the Armistice, I don't see how the architecture would be affected very much by the Imperial presence in Morrowind. It's not a bad idea, I just don't think it would work with the backstory Bethesda created for the Dunmer. But apart from the small Velothi tileset, Bethesda also created a large (2x2) and a superlarge (4x4) Velothi tileset, and if memory serves me right both the latter two tile sets looked a lot more advanced than the small one. So perhaps you could make a large tile set once the current one is done and then we could use the small tileset for ancient surroundings and the larger one for more modern surroundings, including Temples and such? What do you think of that idea?

[Ben Vagara]

Now there's some good research! Thanks, Razorwing!

Your three points are accurate and I would keep with them. I also concur with your comments about Velothi architecture, with an observation that the larger formats tend to be used in Vivec and other "princely" places, while the smaller structures tend to be family sites.

If I were to guess, I would say that Velothi architecture came about with Veloth and his followers entering the Morrowind region. I would surmise that this architectural style, found in Vivec City and in the tombs of prominent Dunmer families, and in the Temples (a newer, formalized religion when compared to the Ashlanders' approach), continues with the more "civilized" Great Houses with their wealth, education, power, etc. under Vivec's reign. The Ashlanders don't seem to have any urns or ashpits. About the only place for the dearly departed Ashlander ancestor is within the cavern system one visits as part of becoming the Nerevarine with the Urshilaku tribe. Remember the names of the different places?

Enough ramblings....

The Velothi tile set looks good and I like the idea of using them. And I also agree with Razorwing on the influences of the Imperials... from Morrowind, all things Imperial tend to be gray stone block, with no sign (that I recall) of Imperial acceptance of Dunmer/Velothi architectural influences. But using the Velothi set would definitely be needed for Silgrad Tower - Oblivion, as we will be doing areas including the Velothi Mountains - named after the Prophet that apparently inspired the architectural style... So one might expect to find some examples of more buildings of this type...

Ok, so that was a bit more rambling... =)

Ben

[spankybus]

Originally posted by Razorwing

Perhaps we can digest this into statements we can all agree upon? If so, here are my suggestions. Feel free to comment them or pitch your own.
1) The vast majority of Velothi tombs are abandoned. Most Dunmers alive today use Temples rather than Tombs for their ancestor worship.
2) The vast majority of Velothi tombs are guarded by undead. Some are guarded by daedra, and a handful by living people. A few tombs have been invaded by vampires.
3) Except for the Ashlanders, Dunmers in the past cremated their dead and either left them in ashpits or confined their ashes into urns, and left them in their family's Ancestral Tomb.

spankybus: As the book "Ancestors and the Dunmer" says that the tombs haven't been used much since the Armistice, I don't see how the architecture would be affected very much by the Imperial presence in Morrowind. It's not a bad idea, I just don't think it would work with the backstory Bethesda created for the Dunmer. But apart from the small Velothi tileset, Bethesda also created a large (2x2) and a superlarge (4x4) Velothi tileset, and if memory serves me right both the latter two tile sets looked a lot more advanced than the small one. So perhaps you could make a large tile set once the current one is done and then we could use the small tileset for ancient surroundings and the larger one for more modern surroundings, including Temples and such? What do you think of that idea?

Then the tombs will be Urns and ashpits then, so I will make shelves and such acordingly. I still think there should be a LOT of them. How long have these tombs been in exsistence? how many generations? Should be hundreds, lining the walls, a few of real prominence in key places, over thousands of years, think how many times that family tree grew a new set of branches. I really like TES, but i never visit the imperial library cause for me, that is crossing some kind of line lmao so thanks for checkin al lthat stuff. I will only let my dorkness run amok so far before I have to put a leash on it :lmao:

As far as making Traps, that gets a bit complicated as far as 3d work goes, you have to plan for it while you are making stuff. If you want traps, thats Fine, you but you have to let me know EXACTLY how it will work so I can make a set around that, it cannot work the other way round, building a trap round pre-exsisting objects. Even for simple traps...For example, If a stone wall slides down to close the tomb. I need to make a section of wall with Grooves in its sides to accomodate the falling stone slab and a sunken section in the floor so the slab wall really seals the place proper. It can't just be a flat slab intersecting the 3d section, because it will look nuts, the walss aren't straight up and down, so a flat slab would get stuck in the waist-level shelf, it needs its wown trank in Real-life for it to work, so you have to do that in 3d if you want it to look creditble. That said, I will just make the set peieces as they are in Morrowind, new improved look and detail not withstanding. I mean, If its a 3way intersection, i make a 3way interesection. So if you want traps, once you have them planned, i can see about HOW they would work in real life and make a set of parts that will make it a reality in the game...us damn engineers lol.

As far as the large-scale stuff, we;ll see how far I get on the small scale stuff. There are over 100 parts it seems, and you've given me no list as to WHICH parts you will need, so I am just making some of the generic parts. If you have a plan for HOW the interieor will be laid out, that would help me know which parts are a priority, especially it if involves any of the more complex parts,,like bridges and open-air curved sections. If I try to make all the parts will will take a long time, which i guess we have with the delay, but its time the interior decorators will miss as far as using the parts to get the ST insides fleshed out.

Also I will see what I can do for the Ash pits to make em feel more like a place where bodied were burned, instead of just some obscure circle with what looks like dirt in it lol. Any ideas on WHAt makes an ash pit look like a place of Cremation? other than ash lol

Also, because I am kind of new here. Who is who...i mean, chime in here and tell me what you post is, texture artist, script snf code writer, producer, director, etc so I know WHO to directspecific questions at, as the occur to me. lol I would recommend we add titles to our forums names that reflect our jobs, but my last gig was workin with actual developers so I got used to knowing WHO did WHAt, so if i had a quetion, i know who to ask. You guys seem to be a pretty big mod team, perhaps similar organization could be useful, maybe we'll even end up being a company of our own, stranger stuff has happened

I can see it now....Shortbus Studios Presents :bananarock:

[spankybus]

I ran into a unique Problem as I was making one of the 4 corner pieces. The original Morrowind Corner VS_corner_01 was essentially 2 walls and all open elsewhere. you could like 4 of them and make a 4 sided room. This worked well because the roof was flat so there were no geometric Complications in wide open rooms. This always bothered me because rooms that have a great deal of rock over tehm cannot be that large without support beams. Look at mining shafts and other subterrainian structures. With the domed roofing, there needed now, more than just from an engineering standpoint, a support system to make the overall geometry make since. Here are the resilts, the rooms lWill still look open, but it will have a column supoport system that looks, not only functional, but rather cool if i don't mind saying so lol of course we all know about opinions, so here are some shots and what the resulting changes can look like. There is aminor issue with the seem in the curves sections of the supports, i will address them to they appear solid when joined, line the main support beam does. But here is an early look