Legio Argonis plans

[Axen]

Just because things were done previously doesn't mean they were done the best, or even done good. Just because a few things would be done differently doesn't mean it wouldn't believably represent Morrowind.

I like the idea of an ancient Velothi tower that functioned as a defense post against the Nords better than Yet Another Imperial Fort™.

[KuKulzA]

you guys are so die-heart... :lmao:

EDIT: doesn't mean I'm not taking it all in and considering your arguements, it's just very amusing and yet very appreciable

[raggidman]

If you added in an ancient Velothi Fort in a previously inaccessible or concealed location nearby then a player could feel that you are taking your Lore seriously, are continuing a worthwhile project, and are modding something seriously in accord with this community's stated intentions of staying true to Lore.

If you replace a relatively newly Constructed Imperial Fort with an unmissable ancient Velothi Structure then you are saying that ST Lore is a joke, insignificant, not worth anyone's time or consideration, and that your own contribution will be treated in the same way in the near future. So why bother modding? If you are going to encourage others to destroy your own work to satisfy their own insensitive and personal whims why bothe rto spend the time in the first place?

I have been trying to encourage modders and Lore Meisters from other sites to contribute to ST. But they often say they are busy and I have even had a suggestion that there was a hidden agendas connectd with such an invitation. If you keep on 'playing about' on the forums like this then you may add credence to such a view, even if you do not intend to follow it.

As a project leader KK you have to be seen to take things seriously in practice. If you want to attract serious modders you have to be seen to take your own Lore seriously.

I do not know what a 'Prince' does Axen, but your emblem is a sort of gold leaf which suggests that you also have some serious responsibility and have made major contributions to ST. So fatuously negative comments by you can have the same effect. Who wants to feel that their work will be treated as a joke by their colleagues for their own personal amusement?

ps I enjoy a joke, even in a serious topic, but I think that there is something very basic that needs to be openly stressed here, because by respecting our own Lore and past and building from that we will help newcomers get up to speed. Otherwise they won't have anywhere to refer to among other things. Don't chuck away our past.

[Axen]

"Just because things were done previously doesn't mean they were done the best, or even done good. Just because a few things would be done differently doesn't mean it wouldn't believably represent Morrowind."

You are far too protective (not just of old things, but new ideas). You never seem to show anything for a particular subject other than black-and-white "yes" and "no"... "yes" to anything that isn't change to ST, "no" to things that are. You are offended when anyone tries to change ST lore, but you have no problem horribly messing with Bethesda's?!
Why do you insist I'm attacking the people who made the ST lore, not the lore itself?



(And as far as I know, Prince is a post count rank.)

[X23]

Well, how is lore made? You make it up. How did Bethesda make lore? They made it up. How did the ST people make lore? Nothings perfect either, so changing lore a little isn't bad. It isn't like we want to add lasers.

I'm neutral here, but I have no clue how this started.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by X23
Well, how is lore made? You make it up. How did Bethesda make lore? They made it up. How did the ST people make lore? Nothings perfect either, so changing lore a little isn't bad. It isn't like we want to add lasers.

I'm neutral here, but I have no clue how this started.

to brief you on this, and to also sum it up for myself and others...

there are two routes for Legio Argonis...
either I build upon what was Legio Argonis in TES3 and progress it six years to fit it to Silgrad lore
OR I can implement a lot of my own new ideas, but based on the main points of the old TES3 version

raggidman is totally convinced I should build on the Silgrad lore, meanwhile Axen feels it is alright to re-do it
Razorwing is fine either way from what I can tell, and it seems you are too


though Axen and raggidman's arguement may be a bit personal, they both bring up very valid points...
and I will need to find a balance between the two and go with it... when I do finally decide to how I am to make Legio Argonis, I hope you two will respect my decision, whatever side it leans to... thank you

[DarkAsmodeous]

Was it this team that set that lore? Because if so, this team may also change it. However, if you refer to some of hand serious lore then may I cite an example? (may be wrong here) In battlespire it is stated that each deadra prince has his own plane of existance, and that Oblivion was specialy construcrted to make Dagon suffer. In Oblivion, all of a suden they ALL live in oblivion, because that was convenient and it worked.

[X23]

Originally posted by DarkAsmodeous
Was it this team that set that lore? Because if so, this team may also change it. However, if you refer to some of hand serious lore then may I cite an example? (may be wrong here) In battlespire it is stated that each deadra prince has his own plane of existance, and that Oblivion was specialy construcrted to make Dagon suffer. In Oblivion, all of a suden they ALL live in oblivion, because that was convenient and it worked.

They undeepened the lore to make it "heLL oN EaRtH1!!11!!1"

I think that either way would fine. I never visited the location in Tes 3 though becuse I never had the mod until now.

[Axen]

Originally posted by DarkAsmodeous
However, if you refer to some of hand serious lore then may I cite an example? (may be wrong here) In battlespire it is stated that each deadra prince has his own plane of existance, and that Oblivion was specialy construcrted to make Dagon suffer. In Oblivion, all of a suden they ALL live in oblivion, because that was convenient and it worked.

TES2 might be a better source for lore on that subject. (Though, this is off topic...)

[Razorwing]

Hmmmm... *puts on a pot of coffee* ...where to start.

Originally posted by raggidman -here-
Who is going to believe that the poor, virtually subsistance level resource colony has the finance to totally rebuild their holdings? The only reason they survive is because they agreed to be the local Imperial police. The Imperials obviously built the fort and since then they have had no reason to expend further monies.

I think you've misunderstood a few things, raggidman. By the movie analogy I meant that my approach isn't so much thinking "What happened in the six years since our old mod started?" - a sequel - as it is thinking that "If we take the ideas and concepts of the old mod and apply them to the Oblivion platform, how would it be?" - a remake.

So personally I don't reason in terms like what the lizards at Legio Argonis could or couldn't have built in six years, I reason that if we took the core concept of the place - which I came up with and modded - and applied it today, on the Oblivion platform... how would it look and feel then?

Originally posted by raggidman -here-
It's true that Razorwing made a courageous decision to use the Ob models for ReichParkeep and I did not criticise becaue I felt that what he did made a huge contribution to get the ball rolling at a critical time, but that was then. Momentum is picking up and the first big town is substantially there for all to admire.

In the TES3 mod, Reich Parkeep consisted of two Imperial keeps connected with a bridge in the midst of a Redoran village. In the Oblivion mod, Reich Parkeep consists of two Imperial keeps connected with a bridge in the midst of a Redoran village. See how I come back to the 'remake' concept? I even kept the road down to the Redoran district in the same place, exiting through the east wall of the soutern keep and making a round curve down to below the bridge.

That's the basic concept of Reich Parkeep's layout, and that's what I personally want to keep. Naturally they won't look the same. For example, there isn't any building models in Oblivion that look very close to the ones used in the TES3 mod, whether for the stone keeps or the houses. Walls work differently this time, keeping the player inside the worldspace, so it wouldn't be practical to add steps for him to walk up on the walls like in the old keeps. If I remember correctly there wasn't a viable exporter back when I started, so it wouldn't have been possible to recreate the old Imperial building designs from The Elder Scrolls III, even if I had thought it would have made sense to model Imperial buildings when the game is filled chock-full of them. There were Imperial buildings there in the past, and so there is now, and it's fine the way it is.

I trust you didn't miss the months of development that have been plowed down by Caligula Superfly and Zarf into recreating Redoran buildings true to the original designs? In light of that I find your quoted comment above a bit condescending.

Originally posted by Axen -here-
Just because things were done previously doesn't mean they were done the best, or even done good. Just because a few things would be done differently doesn't mean it wouldn't believably represent Morrowind.

Yes. The people back then weren't better or smarter or more creatively gifted than our current team members. Respecting our history and backdrop is important in my opinion, as is respecting lore and the 'immersion factor' - but old ideas aren't better than new ideas just because they're older.

Originally posted by Axen -here-
I like the idea of an ancient Velothi tower that functioned as a defense post against the Nords better than Yet Another Imperial Fort™.

Originally posted by raggidman -here-
If you replace a relatively newly Constructed Imperial Fort with an unmissable ancient Velothi Structure [...]

I think Axen referred to The Ancient Gate, as that's the only defense against Nords in the TES3 mod I know of. It doesn't have anything to do with Legio Argonis, which I believe will be built in Imperial style - since KuKulzA said that in the initial post and I haven't read anything to the contrary from him.

Originally posted by Axen

Originally posted by DarkAsmodeous
However, if you refer to some of hand serious lore then may I cite an example? (may be wrong here) In battlespire it is stated that each deadra prince has his own plane of existance, and that Oblivion was specialy construcrted to make Dagon suffer. In Oblivion, all of a suden they ALL live in oblivion, because that was convenient and it worked.

TES2 might be a better source for lore on that subject. (Though, this is off topic...)

The general rule-of-thumb is that new lore always overrides old lore. A famous example is the Cyrodiil Province, which was said to be dominated by vast jungles - prior to Oblivion. Or Ebonheart, which was a city on mainland Morrowind - until Morrowind was released. But old lore that isn't overridden by new lore is still valid indefinitely, i.e. that there's a shop called Vaniken R'i's Provisions in Reich Parkeep.