TEMPLE IDEA: Temple & Dagoth vs. Akaviri invasion?

[X23]

Originally posted by Axen

Originally posted by X23
I didn't know they were at war. How about in the beginning of the game there are rumors that there is a truce, and no one knows why. Than later on they attack.

Both of them crave absolute power. That's why the leader of the Tiger-Dragons transformed himself into a Dragon. They won't just call a truce.

Do you really want us to take attention off of the Dunmer and Vvardenfell and instead spend it on some extremely strange races we don't know a damn thing about except their appearances and basic desires?

This would be after the MQ. I think they would be a cool race. Extremely strange doesn't mean bad. But you're probably right that we shouldn't make up too much lore. i wish we could though. Maybe one side landed on vvardenfell to gain advantage over the other side.

[Axen]

Originally posted by X23

Originally posted by Axen

Originally posted by X23
I didn't know they were at war. How about in the beginning of the game there are rumors that there is a truce, and no one knows why. Than later on they attack.

Both of them crave absolute power. That's why the leader of the Tiger-Dragons transformed himself into a Dragon. They won't just call a truce.

Do you really want us to take attention off of the Dunmer and Vvardenfell and instead spend it on some extremely strange races we don't know a damn thing about except their appearances and basic desires?

This would be after the MQ. I think they would be a cool race. Extremely strange doesn't mean bad. But you're probably right that we shouldn't make up too much lore. I wish we could though. Maybe one side landed on vvardenfell to gain advantage over the other side.

I never meant "extremely strange" in that they are bad, just that it'd be extremely hard to come up with lore that justifies them.
But if you want Akaviri, make it a seperate mod.

[X23]

If there was an Akavir mod, we should get together with it so we can make it so Akaviri invade Morrowind or Vvardfell. But other than that you're probably right.

[KuKulzA]

ummm
I'm not sooo hot about Akaviri invading... BUT I do know the Kamal snow demons did at one point... and surely they want revenge.... and they couldn't conquer the Tang Mo monkeys, so maybe they focus elsewhere... also they are relatively mysterious to us and are nlot as controversial in appearance and culture like the Tsaesci and KaPoTun.... they are seen as mysterious snowy invaders from Akavrir and nothing else... and if we choose to not fabricate topo much, we can simply leave it at that....

on Akavir there were reports of snake men, tiger men, mankey men, men, goblins, dragons, ice demon, and rast men among others... I thionk it is safe to say at least one group isn't so caught up in the Tsaesci - KaPoTun Wars....

I do not advocate HUGE lore fabrication for four reasons...

1. It can go out of the guidelines and though creative may be different from what the lore of Bethesda indicates
   
2. although a certain amount of fabrication MUST be made (such as a Great House War in Vvardenfell), bringing outside influences into your mod's native atmosphere is risky... you risk losing the charm of, in our case, Vvardenfell
   
3. SOME ultra super fragilistic lore-purists will be up my ass about it and I don't like that. Sure they are concerned but can be a bit too extreme; like Buddhists who do nothing but memorize Mantras or Catholics who pray plenty but wouldn't even say hi to their neighbor let alone help them out.
   
4. everything needs moderation, and so do fabrications
   

you must all know I am a firm believer that if it can be backed with existing lore reasonably and can be argued for very successfully, it has a lot of reason to be in the mod.... something are not easy to defend, others are... small fabrications are easier to defend....
but do consider the points above.... thanks

[raggidman]

This is why I suggested that only 2 - pleae read that again Axen = only 2 Akaviri are included. Will you please read the d...m post please for a change?

And if there are only 2 Akaviri they would not necessarily represent the norm of Akaviri society?

Also I suggested that we contact some of the accepted Lore Masters on the specialist Lore Forums to assist...

Now just what part of that did you read?

Seems to me that once you get set against something you go blind to anything further that anyone writes. Well I read your post and adjusted my position so that something that adresses your concerns without destroying the whole idea could be considered, and I would appreciate it if you actually read what I write before you make wild assumptions, thank you. v. X(

[Axen]

Raggidman: Yes, I did read your post (all of it). The part I'm the least fond of is realizing their appearance. The descriptions that exist are... vague. Now, it might seem like a small issue, but it's really a quite large one.

[KuKulzA]

:lol: you guys are so stubbornly heated about this.... take it easy.... Temple's last days MQ is a 2nd installation...
who knows it might not even happen!!! the main priority is Vvardenfell, the people and quests, and the MQ of the Great House War. Temple's Last days.... that's not quite AS important...

Axen brings up good points against Akavir, X23 good points for it... both are a bit far to their own spectrums...
Raggidman believes Akaviri COULD be in our mod, just on a smaller scale and less involved then some of X23's ideas...

and I think it is time for me to speak up in a decision making manner... I hope you all payed attention to my previous post so I don't need to repeat myself... THREE PART assesment coming up!

(you guys have forced me to type A LOT! :brew:

[title]Part 1 - consider the limitations[/title]
I have been with this mod since it started (with me), and I think that everyone has some sort of good idea to bring to an arguement (which has a negative tone to it but whatever). So how about... debate. In this debate about whether to include Akaviri or not... we need to consider a few things...
1. follow lore guidelines, Akavir's main powers will not attack (Tsaesci and Tiger-folk)
2. recognize this is a relatively large fabrication, though shouldn't just be ruled out
3. we do not want to lose the charm of Vvardenfell, what it is, its atmosphere

[title]Part 2 - Which Akaviri can we do?[/title]
okay, so let us see... in order to not conflict with Bethesda lore...
Tsaesci and KaPotTun are deep in an Akavir war, we cannot use them as our Akaviri invaders...
This is a large fabrication, so we must make supports... what can we use? Nerevarine has gone to Akavir, and the two Akaviri races who have invaded are Kamal and Tsaesci. Almalexia and the Underking defeated the Kamal on the slopes of Red Mt. Vivec drowned the Tsaesci by making a province-wide flood. If the Tsaesci are embroiled in a war, the only other Akaviri race that actually has had any interest in invading Morrowind are the Kamal. Also, since the Nerevarine went to Akavir, he probably went on a mission. Therefore, he either took a ship to the northern areas, or island-hopped to the Tsaesci shores. I believe that it would be easy to have landed anywhere along the west coast. And Akavir is surely as big or long (vertically) as Tamriel as the Kamal land is icy and the Tsaesci lands are fertile and have monsoons.

we can assume the only likely invader are the Kamal, based on our limited lore/info

[title]Part 3 - How not to lose the charm?[/title]
so how do we do this without losing the charm of Vvardenfell, without making it too much of a climatic event that SHOULD alter Morrowind history in a HUGE way, which we are not going to do so much. Let's see.... perhaps the Akaviri invasion is a small raiding party, not but at all.... it stands to reason that teh Kamal are probably trying to suceed in a war with the Tang Mo and maybe others. They do however have immense numbers so they may spare a raiding party to go to Vvardenfell. However the war-torn Vvardenfellians are unable to mobilize for resistance. The Nordsof Sheogorad are struggling to rebuild, the orcs and argonians trying to organize their fledgling (illegal) kingdoms, and the Houses economically and martially drained. The only two forces on Vvardenfell that have been doing alright is the re-emerging 6th House and the reforming Temple.

So EVEN THOUGH this Akaviri invasion will be small-scale, the necessity of squashing it is HUGE as Vvardenfell is drained, the mainland governments of the factions of Vvardenfell are in a civil war and never truly condoned1 the war on Vvardenfell, and so... the Temple and 6th House can reconcile or at least truce, and life on Vvardenfell can be peaceful...sort of

and I think it would be symbolic if the Temple drove the Akavir up Red Mt. and the 6th House and Temple did a hammer&anvil tactic to squash the invaders on Red Mt., symbolic cause Alamexlia and the Underking, what was considered the good and the bad, came together to defeat the foreign invader.

---

[/hr]
Foot-notes:

1 - what I mean by it is not condoned war is this:
Ralos Venim is a sort of upstart. A semi-fascist leader who has taken control after his father, but DOES listen to more open and prudent advice of Athyn Sarethi. Therefore, as he is militaristic and cunning but concentrated on Vvardenfell, th mainland Redoran, who are fighting off the brunt of the Nordic invasion and also declining are not totalyl supportive and local councilors begin to take control in areas like Cormaris View, Kragenmoore, and Soluthis. Aryon is like-wise a sort of upstart. His persuasive and brutal tactics have made him popular with Vvardenfell Telvanni, and his flexible allainces make him stronger. The more hard-headed and traditional mainland Telvanni as well as Dratha and Neloth don't fully support Aryon and this ambitious and aggressive generation. Also, the Dres on Vvardenfell are from a Dres Warlord, Hizibital, and do not represent the entire House, the Indoril are refugees led by old Indoril veterans. And the Hlaalu only go to war over the Caldera crisis and this diverts the war-funds of the House.
Obviously the illigitimate Hlormaren Argonian hold and the illigitimate Orc-hold of Valvaryon as well as the Sheogorad Nords are not supported by most, and the Ashlanders only have a voice through Redoran and Telvanni of Vvardenfell....
so that is what I mean

[Axen]

I still prefer the more strictly Dunmer-related version of the Last Days of the Temple main quest. I don't believe we should burden ourselves further with an Akaviri invasion.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Axen
I still prefer the more strictly Dunmer-related version of the Last Days of the Temple main quest. I don't believe we should burden ourselves further with an Akaviri invasion.

and that is a very good point

the above is my suggestion for this particular idea.... there are plenty of ideas out there already
IF we go Akaviri, Kamal is our best bet though I think... agreed? hrug:

[raggidman]

Try: 'The Envoy'

Name your Akaviri power is looking for a powerful object and to recruit big time to aid his/her people on Akavir.

A rival Akaviri (same race or different) does not like this and sends an agent to counter this (define your reasons.) The second arrives too late to prevent the first setting up, and has to recruit and make his/her own connections to oppose the first.

Because they are both spies/agents nothing of their appearance, words or deeds can be trusted = no Lore conflicts. But therre they are!