Bal Molagmer. replacement of the Vvar thieves guild?

[KuKulzA]

hmm....

well okay... I think its a cool idea to have the "good thieves" and then the thugs... cause in TES3 the Thieves Guild were the "good thieves" but were technically bad... hrug: go figure, its a bit more complex than that...

so how about... there is a Balm Molagmer secret faction, and joining it will let you know deeper of what happened with the Thieves Guild how overnight it "disappeared"....
like maybe a betrayal... maybe one of the higher thieves collaborated with the Camonna and had all the GuildThieves meet somewhere and then ambush was sprung and the Thieves Guild was taken out except for a few who didn't come and a few who did escape... and of fugitive ones and some being killed in their sleep or killed on the roads... and how tragically very few remained...
but Jim Stacey secretly working with the Temple was lent money and secret support to start a Temple affiliated Bal Molagmer, though in reality having religious freedom, but worked in the name of the temple so the temple would give space and resources and protection and the Bal Molagmer could boost the charity and imagine of the temple as the Bal Molagmer were 'robin hoods' and so could fend for the poor and take from the rich...
and then as the Bal Molagmer, on the outside you are chivalrous but inside you have to evade local guards and royal guards and also out-manuever Ordinators... maybe the Bal Molagmer stole something from a noble... but it was a relic?

who knows... its just getting my creativity sparked... good idea..




so maybe instead of an open and weak Thieves Guild we can have a super secret robin hood group (Bal molagmer) and a openly known and feared thug mafia group (Camonna Tong) for our criminal factions?

[TheImperialDragon]

Sorry, didn't read all posts, but wasn't Gentleman Jim Stacey dead in TES4's timeline?

[shamaz]

I like this idea :goodjob:. This type of creativity is needed in Tes4 : Vvardenfell, it fits the lore but it's not Bethesda's Morrowind. I think that's what people would want (or prefer).

I imagined a little quest to discover the existence of the Bal Molagmer. This is just an example.

introduction :
Thieves Guild is almost dead from Camonna and Fighters Guild's attacks (mostly Camonna). We can imagine, there are still some leaders of the Thieve Guild, but they are purchased by the Camona.

When you arrive in the city of [insert a city of your choice], you hear rumors that Llaalamu Sathren is threaten by the Camona because she has hidden and protected Hecerinde, an influent member of the Thieve Guild. She managed to escape before being caught by the Camona.
If your character is virtuous, you might want to find her and to protect her before she's assassinated. [insert a way for the player to find her].
When you finally discover her hiding-place, she's attacked by two agent ! You have to save her ! If you succeed, she leads you to Hecerinde. And she explain you all the story... How the Thieve has been ambushed, how she survived etc. And she seems to know something about the Bal Molagmer...

Now let's begin the Bal Molagmer quests :banana:

[Sniper4]

Originally posted by TheImperialDragon
Sorry, didn't read all posts, but wasn't Gentleman Jim Stacey dead in TES4's timeline?

"Myth or Menace" in OB said that what happened to him is unknown. The rest were probably killed by the fighters guild and/or Cammona Tong. The passage in the book "Myth or Menace" claims that it was the Morag Tong that killed off the theives guild, but anyone who played MW knows that in the FG questline, if you choose to work with the CT, you kill the TG. The MT has nothing to do with it. Here is the quote:

"The best documented case of a Thieves Guild was found in Morrowind. For a brief time Gentleman Jim Stacey ran a ring of thieved that robbed wealthy merchants and nobles all across that island nation. During the recent Nevarine incident, the Fighters Guild and the shadowy Morag Tong eliminated this band of thugs. The final fate of Jim Stacey himself is not known."

You can find the full text here:
http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/myth_menace.shtml

edit: Also note that the author refered to MW as an "island nation" .

edit edit: In the quest in MW, you only kill the TG bosses, so I'm sure the rest are probably running around somewhere. If you didn't do the MW quest, and Jim Stacey's status is truly "unknown" then... who knows who's dead and who's alive. If you did the quest, though, then Jim Stacy is dead.

[Sericho]

serico, was trying to explain why I never went the Thieves Guild Road, and so never heard of the Bal Molagmer.

However my route took me into an analysis of what feel to be the shortcomings of the Theives Guild.

Having a sub-faction withing the Guild that does not like th emurdering path that the Thieves Guild has taken therefore makes sense to me.

And I am saying have 2 separate Guilds = Thieves Guild and Cammona Tong, and then do the break-up and division of the Thieves Guild into the 2 factions in-game. Far more satisfyin'.

Ahh, sorry. Well...The Thieves Guild aren't murderers either. That's actually why they oppose the Cammona Tong, they are completely against murder. And if the Bal Molagmer didn't like the path the thieves guild has taken, i doubt they'd just make a new branch of the TG, they'd break off and start a new faction altogether. Just my opinion.

Loving the ideas, KuKulZa! :goodjob:

While it's a good idea to include information about what happened to the Vvar Thieves Guild (which would also make for a very nice Bal M side-quest, maybe given by a grieving Stacey himself). IMHO, the Bal Molagmer themselves should be an independant faction that really don't have anything to do with the Thieves Guild anymore. There are a few reasons for this...

1) In TES3, the only connection they had with the thieves guild was that Jim Stacey was the guy who decided to bring them back. He had no plans of affiliating them with the Thieves Guild, and the Bal Molagmer quests he gave were completely independant from the TG quest-line. You were to return items "in the name of the Bal Molagmer" and never was the thieves guild mentioned. In fact, the Bal Molagmer would probably attempt to return some of the items the TG themselves stole to their rightful owners.
2) If the Bal Molagmer and the Thieves Guild were allied/affiliated, the Bal Molagmer(who were rapidly growing in size, power, and recognition)would have helped them in their time of need, when they were being destroyed by the CT/FG.
3) Having an independant faction would add a new experience for the player, a new "breed" of guild that fits the style of Morrowind perfectly but was never presented in TES3.

Also, i really like the Temple idea. It's another good reason why the Bal Molagmer have grown so rapidly.

Also, on the subject of Stacey...i believe at the time that book was written, he was still in Hammerfell. The only person he told where he was going after he handed over the Thieves Guild, was the Nerevarine. So it's likely everyone else just thought he dissapeared. Anyway, if the Bal Molagmer are to be incorporated...it'd be really cool to bring back good ol' stacey

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Sericho
...IMHO, the Bal Molagmer themselves should be an independant faction that really don't have anything to do with the Thieves Guild anymore. There are a few reasons for this...
1) In TES3, the only connection they had with the thieves guild was that Jim Stacey was the guy who decided to bring them back. He had no plans of affiliating them with the Thieves Guild...

No... Jim Stacey formed the Bal Molagmer because...
1- it appealed to common Dunmer's plight, their defience against rich (aside from their kin) and their pride in their hard poor labor
2- folk storyies of the fire-rock men (robin hoods) are probably popular and well regarded by the Dunmer with their societal experience
3- Thieves Guild has a bad rap in Morrowind even though openly allowed since they counter the Camonna... so the Bal Molagmer, having a secret and discernable connection with the Thieves Guild will improve its image... I mean its a foreign criminal organization, it needs support

thus it was used as a way to keep upper Guild Thieves more secretive and also to boost the Thieves Guild image... now Thieves Guild in Vvardenfell is just about dead, the Bal Molagmer is trying to establish itself though small, but nevertheless an elite group of ex-Guild Thieves who are lucky to be alive, and thus all the more stealthy...

Originally posted by Sericho
3) Having an independant faction would add a new experience for the player, a new "breed" of guild that fits the style of Morrowind perfectly but was never presented in TES3.

yea, we got a lot of ideas ofr a lot of those, but soon I we be reviewing the factions and perhaps cut down some and add some

[Sericho]

You know, you're probably right, it's been a while since i've read Stacey's dialogue so i guess i missed some stuff(i.e, stacey's purpose for bringing back the Bal Molagmer). So if what you say is true, than an alliance with the thieves guild would be reasonable, if it's handled right. All i've been trying to say is that the Bal Molagmer shouldn't be a branch of the thieves guild or have it's quests centered around the thieves guild. It should be independant... hrug:

It's funny, i almost completely forgot all about the "fire-rock men".

Also, this is kind of off-topic...but it's been bugging me. What is this "Dreugh mod" you speak of in your signature?

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Sericho
Also, this is kind of off-topic...but it's been bugging me. What is this "Dreugh mod" you speak of in your signature?

shhh... its... a something special...
but has to do with Vvardenfell in many ways... for example... it is set in Morrowind just north of Vvardenfell... for second... Vivec and Molag Bal is in their epic struggle... and the Dreugh are Molag Bal's 'children'... so... come to your own conclusions... it is a small side project manned by me and one other forum member here... good guy
I may or may not implement the Druehg mod into Vvardenfell, most likely as a plug-in to add to it like an expansion...
the idea is that there will be a TES3 version that will add onto TES3 and a TES4 version to add onto TES4 Vvardenfell

[Sericho]

sounds awesome, can't wait.

[KuKulzA]

so anymore ideas on the Bal Molagmer before I start revising faction lists and ideas?

Originally posted by Sericho
sounds awesome, can't wait.

you'll have to...its gonna be awhile before it'll come along... but be patient... it'll be cool :yes: