Temple and 6th House issues

[Cuthalion]

Dammit, I still notice that when I'm not fully concentrated there can be slight differences in my english, that has as a result that the sentence is taken differently than my intention was. My intention was that Orvas Dren would throw the more 'extremistic' elements of the 6th house - those who do not want to change to survive and would darken House Dagoth if alive - into a full-blown crusade towards Fyr, while Orvas consults with the Telvanni Nobles to lay ambush to the crusaders. Thus gaining the convidence of the Telvanni ?nd he'd have gotten rid of those irritating extremists who would force 'his' house to hide!

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Cuthalion
Dammit, I still notice that when I'm not fully concentrated there can be slight differences in my english, that has as a result that the sentence is taken differently than my intention was. My intention was that Orvas Dren would throw the more 'extremistic' elements of the 6th house - those who do not want to change to survive and would darken House Dagoth if alive - into a full-blown crusade towards Fyr, while Orvas consults with the Telvanni Nobles to lay ambush to the crusaders. Thus gaining the convidence of the Telvanni ?nd he'd have gotten rid of those irritating extremists who would force 'his' house to hide!

ohh..... HAHAHAHA :lol:
my perception was almost totally different :lmao:

[Axen]

Originally posted by slateman on the TES forums
Much of the lore from Mysterious Akavir is from the scrolls and works of Tosh Raka, the "Tiger-Dragon" who was revered as a divine in Akavir. There was a time when the tiger-beings (of Ka Po'Tun) and the snake-beings (of Po Tun) were at war. The snake-beings had already consumed all of the humans for fear they would someday take over their land, but cleverly, the tiger-beings kept a hidden force of servitor humans to help defend them. After the dust settled, there was still a viable force of human warriors (the precursors to the Blades) whose decedents later on were used in the invasion of Tamriel. This led to the remains of the warriors at Pale Pass.

We created the lore, and you can take this as "fact".

A Bethesda developer. So, we know there are odd creatures on Akavir. Still, I don't think an Akaviri invasion is the best idea, and it kind of strays away from the whole Dunmer thing. Plus, we still have no idea what any of these Akaviri looked like (Snow demons? Very vague. Tiger-beings? How much tiger and how much humanoid? Vampire-snake-men? How much snake, how much vampire, and how much humanoid?).
I probably shouldn't have brought that up since it the Akaviri invasion idea was killed, but, meh, just thought I'd bring this clarification of lore to your attention for you lore lovers.

[KuKulzA]

wel, this is an idea that may have to be abandoned... but I guess we won't be touching Akavir hrug:
fine by me, but I want some sort of way for the player to be 6th House and still be fine... (sorta)

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like maybe in the war between Temple and 6th House, the 6th House actually beats the Temple... in a way
so then they are forced to reconcile, and the Temple asks Morrowind to forgive the 6th House since their "sharmat" is now dead, and the remnants of the 6th House and the orphans are leaderless and only seek to be a new House....
but the people of Morrowind are shocked, some are moved to pity (like in the War of the First Council when they actually adopted 6th House orphans) and some are enraged....
and in either case, the Temple will recognize the 6th House... and the 6th House, even though it has a dark reputation, is allowed to 'rule' Red Mt., although, the Ordinators hate them, their hate is softened....

maybe Vivec gives a speech or two about the betrayal of the Tribunal (in riddles so that they don't seem as bad as they are) and how Dagoth Ur was insane, and led his house into evil but they are not inherently evil...

I dunno about you, but I doubt the Ordinators would let their hate of 6th House overrule Vivec's words... even though they don't love Vivec as they loved Almalexia, and they hate 6th House alot cause they are hard-assed and brain washed ...and of course, Helseth has nothing to say.... he is more shocked and unable to do anything about it?
I mean truth be told, the amount of funds and military the Temple still has, is equal or greater than Helseth's... I mean the Temple USED to rule Morrowind, and Morrowind under Tribunal was considered equal to the Cyrodiilic power... so Helseth don't stand a chance against a mobilized Temple... I mean the Indoril were the strongest House DESPITE the majority of their assets going to the Temple, of course they did need each other though....




what do you think?

[Axen]

Vivec is a liar, and the only truths he ever tells are partial truths (and there's a saying... "a partial truth is a whole lie"... therefore, his Water Face doesn't exactly make him not lie).

[Cuthalion]

@KuKulza, what do you think of my idea? It would bring an 'elaborate' plot into the game, it eliminates an organized 6th House though the evil remnants still exist. And offcourse it creates a 'new' house which the Ordinators still hate, since the 'new' house (House Dren?) would still be the decendants of the 6th house....

[KuKulzA]

actually, I like your idea as a Cammona Tong storyline... it will be similar but not quite the same...
maybe Orvas Dren will make a "minor House Dren" by gathering Dren family from all around Morrowind. Their specialty is illegal trade and Dren is readying to make the Cammona Tong a House Dren thing. However he needs a way to legitimize his House and to pull away from Hlaalu without reprecussions... so perhaps he does some underground dealing with 6th House... he convinces them to attack the Ascadian Isles...
meanwhile he muddles up Hlaalu politics and intelligence so the raid is not heard of until it had already started... and plantations are getting sacked and the Hlaalu are getting REALLY scared, since they almost NEVER encountered 6th House attacks like Telvanni and Redoran have. So then since the Temple is under no leadership and does not respond to the attacks, he says he will take down the 6th House warband. Being put to the test as to whether they'd be honorable and trust Dren or be prudent and not help him the councilors of the three Great Houses are in a tough position when he demands funds for getting a force to stop the 6th House warband... and eventually after controlling some Hlaalu, and using blackmail and such on Redoran and Telvanni he is finally able to get the resources... however he already has a small force and lays an ambush.... IF you are of the Cammona Tong you have to lead this ambush and make sure no 6th House escape, or else they will let their authorities know that Orvas Dren actualy used them to increase his power....
now, Orvas has won the mini-war, he has the money, the recognition, and the military to establish a small minor House Dren.... also, he controls the largest criminal syndicate in Morrowind... he is now VERY powerful...
his House Dren is now populated with Dren, high-up and trusted Cammona Tong, and a few 6th House descendants... and his heirs will control the Cammona Tong. However when as cammona Tong you become kingpin...
he says that he is going to find a wife... and that he leaves the kingpin-ship and Cammona Tong business up to you... and that when he has a son, and when the son is full-grown, the reigns of power will be transferred to him... but for the next few years to come, you will be kingpin (of course after you do a big quest to end the whole Cammona Tong quest-line)

like that?

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I have an idea of how to tie it all together... perhaps...

I think I will provide a background story to this...
Vivec is brought before a tribunal of judges and tried for his murder of Nerevar and for leading a whole people askew. Alandro Sul's ghost and Azura are summoned, Alandro says he has said what he has said and wishes to be left alone. Azura no doubt is no big fan of Vivec But in the end, Vivec banishes Azura, finally having his revenge on her and disappears...
This is the Trial of Vivec* in Hogithum Hall
*it is an RP but several DEVs were in it so we'll go with it

Now where did Vivec go to?

I say he is going to "pay his debts" and "exact vengeance" before he dies...
and so he goes into the void to sneak upon Molag Bal or some other Daedra he has a vendetta against... however he is a bit foolish...
and is caught by Atronachs led by an Atronach Monarch. Holding him captive and Atronachs ask Molag Bal what they would get for giving him Vivec. Molag Bal would grant them something, perhaps Vivec's life-force, as life is one of the strongest forces and one of the greatest mysteries...

however Vivec is rescued by a hero, s/he finds Vivec captive in the void... and frees him...

Vivec is resolved to set things right...
all his life he has been whimsical and brash, not without courage or guile but he has not been a good leader like Nerevar, a stout heart like Alandro Sul, nor even a loyal friend like Dagoth Ur...

and so he resolves on three things... to reform the Temple (and make it stronger), pardon the 6th House, and to weaken Helseth's power over Morrowind... additionally he has a score to settle with the dreugh, with Molag Bal, and some other stuff....

the new generation of the 6th House wants only to live in their ancestral lands at peace with others, however they recognize the other Houses are encroaching... and so they become more and more militaristic...
meanwhile Vivec is reforming the Temple, disbanding War Ordinators on the mainland in Hlaalu and Telvanni territory (they are useless there) and making lots of changes both big and subtle in the Tribunal Temple

However Helseth is sending a large force of Cyrodiilic mercenaries, Nine Divine fanatics, and the like to take Vivec. This is a top-secret mission and a specialized strike-force. They bear no banners of Helseth, only they have one of his agents with them who tells their leader what to do.... and this bad crusade seeks to bring down the Tribunal Temple, and has now been funded by Helseth. They charge in and come in several thousands...

now, Vivec must act quickly... the war-weary people of Vvardenfell are in grave danger, and some are even going to the nearest Nine Divines chapel and trying to get converted for fear of being killed by the bad crusade...
so he issues the Seven Edicts of the Temple...

Vivec calls to all Temple warriors to gather at the Temples
Vivec calls for all House warriors to guard nearby towns, friend or foe
Vivec asks the pardon of Great House Dagoth and its children
Vivec calls for a cease-fire with the Dreugh of Ascadia
Vivec calls for a cease-fire with the House of Troubles
Vivec calls for all Ashlanders to resist the [bad crusade] if they encroach on their lands
Vivec calls for an end to persecution of Nine Divines worshippers

there are three quests now... Vivec gives the Dreugh back the Ruddy Man, he returns all imprisoned 6th House members to Red Mt., and he readies himself for war... (gathers his legendary tokens of Vivec)

Now he is ready... and surprisingly people obey...
House Redoran barrs the Gash from the crusaders. The Telvanni barr them off at Azura's Coast and they cannot advance further. The Hlaalu prevent them from capturing Ebonheart (for if they do they will kill all non-Nine Divines Worshippers and will use it as a base)
there are only two armies of these bad crusaders left... they are every bit as zealous as the Ordinators...
one group marshes up Foyada Mamaea, and another tries to hit Vivec City

Redoran, Orcs, Nords, and Ashlanders join with Buoyant Armigers and Ordinators to hold them back, but many die... then deep rattling horns come from Red Mt. and the 6th House army rolls down, brushes aside the desperate defenders and crushes the crusaders... at Vivec City... a smaller force of Hlaalu, Argonians, and Telvanni try to prevent them from entering Vivec City, but they do, and there is vicious street fighting between the Ordinators and Armigers and the crusaders...
however the crusaders push all the way to the High Fane but are held there...

but as victory seems close, a few sails appear on the horizon... the last battalion of the crusaders have arrived... Vivec sends a message to all House leaders to send forces to Vivec City...
then he gathers his companions and you and teleports to an island off the coast near Vivec City...
the ship is passing by the island... and suddenly is cracks and breaks, and the crusader/knights are falling in the water and clamber ashore onto the island... and you see lots of dreugh breaking apart the ship, water ones killing knights as they swim and land ones hitting them on shore... Vivec and his companions and you join the fray...
once eveything is done... or dead ... Vivec and you go to Mt. Assarnibibi...
people like Aryon, Venim, Sarethi, Vedam Dren, and others are there... and many people...
and he gives speech about his guilt being a bad guardian of Morrowind and finally reconciling and doing what is right and setting things right... he glorifies the councils of the Houses and tells them that it is the way of the Velothi, and not to let anyone come to total power (like Helseth is trying), he also says that these "bad knights" were connected with the Imperial regime on Morrowind (never saying outright that it is Helseth), and he ends with saying he has more business to finish and he fades away...


that's my idea now... and about those "bad crusader/knights", they are kinda like the Knights Templar of the real history... they will be a cult, and powerful, and also religious and fanatical, and also great warriors...

so tell me how it is... I need feedback...
personally I think it is the best so far hrug:


NOTE:
I tend to foreshadow a lot of things I plan to do...
for example the quests I made for Legio Argonis reflect the issues with Argonians on Vvardenfell...
the whole Dreugh thing was a nice touch but also a foreshadowing of one of my mod ideas...

[Axen]

Again, you're trying to make Vivec good, when he's a two-faced liar, the Thief of the world. Vehk might have wanted to do such good deeds, but Vivec stole Vehk, and he is only interested in doing things that are gifts unto himself.

As for the Trial of Vivec and it being lore canon... the actual event apparently didn't happen in the official timeline (if it did, there probably wouldn't be rumors of Vivec's possible kidnapping 6 years later), but the portrayal of all official characters involved is canon.

[Cuthalion]

@KuKulza: I love it! But as to the end: I've always been AGAINST the tradition of the TES games to make you faction leader in the end.... It doesn't always have to end that way right? please?

[KuKulzA]

ha you were tricked too! well not really...
his actions are good on the outside but are bad, in subtle ways
I am making Vivec a good and bad character,, and once it gets down to individual quests you will see it... this is just the overall picture of what is happening... you will see...

but look... if Vivec says he wants peace and to reform the Temple... yet he reorganizes the Ordinators, the thing that helps to uphold the old--style Temple. He pardons his enemies but let me tell ya, he probably doesn't like 6th House, he only did this out of necessity... he don;t like Dreugh, it was out of necessity, and he doesn't like Daedra-worshippers, he did that too out of necessity...
Morrowind was falling behind the rest of Tamriel, while High Rock was starting to unite into large states, and Skyrim beginning to have a sense of unity, and the Argonians having a Royal Court, etc.etc. Morrowind was fractured between Great Houses... till Helseth came... now the divisions are more clearly seen and the people more united behind their groups...
but Vivec is advocating the divisions of the Houses... he doesn't WANT Morrowind to be united under any king... he wants it to be divided like it used to be...

if he wants to set it right, he finds a way to end the strife, but instead he has deepened the rift between Helseth supporters and House supporters, between Nine Divines and Temple... and he has also thrown Morrowind into confusion... is 6th House evil? maybe not.... are the Dreugh bad monsters? who knows... should Daedra-worshippers be persecuted? maybe....

he strengthens the Temple and Morrowind only to leave it in doubt, confusion, and in deeper division...
of course the reforms he makes allows for the Temple to slip into the social life of Dunmer and run on its own.... but the Great Houses and Helseth's regime aren't religions, they are large political and semi-familial organizations

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Originally posted by Cuthalion
@KuKulza: I love it! But as to the end: I've always been AGAINST the tradition of the TES games to make you faction leader in the end.... It doesn't always have to end that way right? please?

hmm... okay... let's NOT be traditional...
wanna continue it in a Cammona Tong thread?