Temple and 6th House issues

[KuKulzA]

ok... let's continue the discussion Here: Vivec in our mod
I don't want this topic to get more off-topic...
though what we are discussing is interesting nevertheless...

so back on topic now guys :yes:

[Axen]

Well, it's apparent that blowing off Morrowind goes against the wants of both Vehk and Vivec (or AT LEAST Vehk)... so we can't do that.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Axen
Well, it's apparent that blowing off Morrowind goes against the wants of both Vehk and Vivec (or AT LEAST Vehk)... so we can't do that.

so I guess the way he goes about changing Morrowind and the way it ends needs to be edited... but otherwise, good seed of an idea?

[Axen]

Originally posted by KuKulzA

Originally posted by Axen
Well, it's apparent that blowing off Morrowind goes against the wants of both Vehk and Vivec (or AT LEAST Vehk)... so we can't do that.

so I guess the way he goes about changing Morrowind and the way it ends needs to be edited... but otherwise, good seed of an idea?

I thought that my original idea about using the Trial of Vivec as the conclusion of the Last Days of the Temple main quest (it'd basically be your quest line, just with the Trial at the end), and then the Great House War following it... because it just worked so well, especially in the case of House Dagoth. Of course, by saying this, I'm gonna get bitched at for "being in love with my idea".

Edit: Damn it! I lost the 777!

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Axen

Originally posted by KuKulzA

Originally posted by Axen
Well, it's apparent that blowing off Morrowind goes against the wants of both Vehk and Vivec (or AT LEAST Vehk)... so we can't do that.

so I guess the way he goes about changing Morrowind and the way it ends needs to be edited... but otherwise, good seed of an idea?

I thought that my original idea about using the Trial of Vivec as the conclusion of the Last Days of the Temple main quest (it'd basically be your quest line, just with the Trial at the end), and then the Great House War following it... because it just worked so well, especially in the case of House Dagoth. Of course, by saying this, I'm gonna get bitched at for "being in love with my idea".

Edit: Damn it! I lost the 777!

so what you are suggesting.... is basically...
the last days of Vivec and Temple first...
then he goes off for his trial of Vivec at Hogithum hall
THEN we have a Great House War....
that COULD work...
I mean... once he is gone, all legitimate rule of Vvardenfell is now divided...

the more I think of it, the more I like it

[Axen]

I didn't mean that.... I meant that they'd become their own minor House BUT they'd still be in the Hlaalu grouping. Only the new House would be more independent and exercise political control...
this way Orvas and do things legally and illegally....
it simply opens his options and allows further control of Hlaalu...

so sorry fo rthe confusion, I typed it down a bit wrong

Now, keep in mind... the Houses are mostly blood-related. Sure, you've got adoptions, but it's still mostly blood. The Minor Houses are lineages, the Great Houses are clans (hopefully I got the definitions of "lineage" and "clan" right).

so what you are suggesting.... is basically...
the last days of Vivec and Temple first...
then he goes off for his trial of Vivec at Hogithum hall
THEN we have a Great House War....
that COULD work...
I mean... once he is gone, all legitimate rule of Vvardenfell is now divided...

Thing is... TES4 doesn't include Hogithum Hall in the Imperial City. X(
I'm hoping that the player would have some kind of a part in the Trial. (And, after the Trial, for the non-lore buffs, you could speak to one of the scholars who observed it and ask him about things. Or we could have multiple scholars you could ask, and they all have multiple interpretations on what happened, and make chaos ensue! :chaos: )

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Axen

I didn't mean that.... I meant that they'd become their own minor House BUT they'd still be in the Hlaalu grouping. Only the new House would be more independent and exercise political control...
this way Orvas and do things legally and illegally....
it simply opens his options and allows further control of Hlaalu...

so sorry fo rthe confusion, I typed it down a bit wrong

Now, keep in mind... the Houses are mostly blood-related. Sure, you've got adoptions, but it's still mostly blood. The Minor Houses are lineages, the Great Houses are clans (hopefully I got the definitions of "lineage" and "clan" right).

well... sorta...
the minor Houses are clans, one or more lineages that are closely related...
the Great Houses are unions of these clans (or multiple lineages) under the power of a few larger and more powerful clans who united and took over or absorbed the others... within the minor House or clan the founder (like in Redoran culture) or whomever the clan-head has "control" but the House Council has control over Great House affairs...

I get this feeling we are saying almost the same thing but in different ways

Originally posted by Axen

so what you are suggesting.... is basically...
the last days of Vivec and Temple first...
then he goes off for his trial of Vivec at Hogithum hall
THEN we have a Great House War....
that COULD work...
I mean... once he is gone, all legitimate rule of Vvardenfell is now divided...

Thing is... TES4 doesn't include Hogithum Hall in the Imperial City. X(
I'm hoping that the player would have some kind of a part in the Trial. (And, after the Trial, for the non-lore buffs, you could speak to one of the scholars who observed it and ask him about things.)

no worries... we might just have to make a Hogithum hall.... in an extra secret location in the Imperial city :bananarock:

[Axen]

Originally posted by KuKulzA
well... sorta...
the minor Houses are clans, one or more lineages that are closely related...
the Great Houses are unions of these clans (or multiple lineages) under the power of a few larger and more powerful clans who united and took over or absorbed the others... within the minor House or clan the founder (like in Redoran culture) or whomever the clan-head has "control" but the House Council has control over Great House affairs...

I get this feeling we are saying almost the same thing but in different ways

Exactly... that's why I don't see how Dren making his own Minor House would work; it's also why Raggidman's idea of making the youth of House Dagoth split into a new, different House wouldn't work (because you can't just do that... they'd still be of the house of Dagoth)... the Houses aren't regular old factions.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Axen

Originally posted by KuKulzA
well... sorta...
the minor Houses are clans, one or more lineages that are closely related...
the Great Houses are unions of these clans (or multiple lineages) under the power of a few larger and more powerful clans who united and took over or absorbed the others... within the minor House or clan the founder (like in Redoran culture) or whomever the clan-head has "control" but the House Council has control over Great House affairs...

I get this feeling we are saying almost the same thing but in different ways

Exactly... that's why I don't see how Dren making his own Minor House would work; it's also why Raggidman's idea of making the youth of House Dagoth split into a new, different House wouldn't work (because you can't just do that... they'd still be of the house of Dagoth)... the Houses aren't regular old factions.

no, not correct... nope...
well at least, bloodlines-wise yes, you are correct... but politically no...
a break-off of House Dagoth is still related to it, but is it's own group cause the broke-off

think of it like this...
let us say there was a country with 20 states. However State 1, 2, and 3 were the most powerful, banded together and absorbed the others into the United 20 states. Now state 20 wants to break away, and it does... it is called State 20.... not United 20 states...

likewise... hypothetically... House Venim is part of Redoran. However House Venim wants to break away. If it does, it is known as minor House Venim, not Great House Redoran... they are still related, but are independent organizations...

BUT, a clan can come to dominance, and they will be somewhat separate... for example, Clan Venim is one of the dominant clans, and so it is very recognized. Maybe Orvas Dren is establishing his clan as dominant in Hlaalu House legally... that means he is still Hlaalu but also Dren...
(he was always Dren but maybe Dren can become dominant and be recognized as one of the major clans, power-wise)

[Axen]

Originally posted by KuKulzA

Originally posted by Axen

Originally posted by KuKulzA
well... sorta...
the minor Houses are clans, one or more lineages that are closely related...
the Great Houses are unions of these clans (or multiple lineages) under the power of a few larger and more powerful clans who united and took over or absorbed the others... within the minor House or clan the founder (like in Redoran culture) or whomever the clan-head has "control" but the House Council has control over Great House affairs...

I get this feeling we are saying almost the same thing but in different ways

Exactly... that's why I don't see how Dren making his own Minor House would work; it's also why Raggidman's idea of making the youth of House Dagoth split into a new, different House wouldn't work (because you can't just do that... they'd still be of the house of Dagoth)... the Houses aren't regular old factions.

no, not correct... nope...
well at least, bloodlines-wise yes, you are correct... but politically no...
a break-off of House Dagoth is still related to it, but is it's own group cause the broke-off

think of it like this...
let us say there was a country with 20 states. However State 1, 2, and 3 were the most powerful, banded together and absorbed the others into the United 20 states. Now state 20 wants to break away, and it does... it is called State 20.... not United 20 states...

likewise... hypothetically... House Venim is part of Redoran. However House Venim wants to break away. If it does, it is known as minor House Venim, not Great House Redoran... they are still related, but are independent organizations...

BUT, a clan can come to dominance, and they will be somewhat separate... for example, Clan Venim is one of the dominant clans, and so it is very recognized. Maybe Orvas Dren is establishing his clan as dominant in Hlaalu House legally... that means he is still Hlaalu but also Dren...
(he was always Dren but maybe Dren can become dominant and be recognized as one of the major clans, power-wise)

Related.
And Dren IS powerful in Hlaalu (Duke Vedam Dren).