The Imperial Union

[Vrenir]

After throwing a couple of ideas back and forth, KuKulzA decided to give the go-ahead to open a thread on the Imperial Union concept. This is basically in the idea stage and needs feedback before we move to develop it further. Here are the basics....

1) The Imperial Union is built upon the premise that the Empire has/is in the process of withdrawing from Morrowind, because face it, the province really isn't worth all that much and the locals hate them and they need the troops back home. Besides, there's the whole thing with the Nereverine prophesy. Regardless of what the Pocket Guide says, the withdraw will either have taken place or be a current event in response to the Daedric invasion of Cyrodill.

2) The Imperial Union is headquartered in Ebonheart, with smaller groups still occupying other Imperial forts across Vvardenfell. Some of the forts though, especially in hostile territory such as Redoran land, have been handed over to local authorities. Settlements across Vvardenfell, particularly in Hlallu territory, still are home to many Imperial citizens, but most are on their own without protection, except near Ebonheart.

3) The Imperial Union is the remnant of the Imperial government and her citizens in Vvardenfell, perhaps in all of Morrowind. It is a faction unto itself but within it will be several different quest givers from the former Mages' Guild (now the Imperial Mages), the Fighters' Guild which has merged with the remaining legionairres in order to boost defense (together known as the Imperial Guard), and the former Thieves' Guild (now the Imperial Businessmen in charge of keeping friendly ports of call open across the island for Imperial citizens and simultaniously keeping tabs on local affairs for the slightly covert furthering of Imperial Union interests). The faction also has strong ties with the East Empire Company and Imperial Cult, the former of which I believe is to be a minor faction. The Dark Brotherhood has their own thing going, though it is easier for them to operate in areas used by the Imperial Union for sake of cover, and the Arena Guild is completely seperate from the Empire and its remnant in Vvardenfell.

Of course there are the obvious objections...

1) TESIV will contradict whatever we try to plan here. The answer I think is that if we are careful and leave open the option of the withdrawal being a current event rather than historical fact, then we will be safe. Whether the Legions are leaving now or did so four years prior doesn't change the fact that the remaining citizens face an uncertain future and need to band together.

2) Won't this ruin the ability of the PC to get credit in Vvardenfell for his high guild rank in Cyrodill? Sort of. The Imperial Union would be a different faction and you would need to start over with rank 1 again. However, I would like to propose that we put in some kind of perk based on whether the PC holds a high rank in a Cyrodill Imperial guild. This could be an automatic promotion, a monetary bonus for signing up to help them, some cool armor, just something to reward the player for their hard work ahead of time.

3) If it's one faction, how do we handle the three groups inside? The answer there is that the Imperial Union has a number of quest givers from the different sub-groups. As a member of the Imperial Union, you can get missions from any or all of them; the key is to know your own limitations or be willing to train in order to branch out, because they won't police your abilities for you. If you're a thief and want to take a mage quest, go for it, just be properly prepared.

4) What about the other Imperial factions like the Cult, the East Empire Company, and the Census and Excise? It has been decided that the Cult will be unjoinable. Presumably, as a member of the Imperial Union, you could be called upon to help out a local priest on occasion, but with the Empire pulling out, the state religion really has little power on most of Vvardenfell and few members, so there's not many people that the Cult is obligated to help. The East Empire Company is the Imperial Union's trade contact with the Empire, and they're conveniently also based out of Ebonheart. As far as I know, they are still supposed to be a small joinable faction that will work with the Union. As for the Census and Excise, it has not yet been decided if they will work for the Imperial Union, only having juristiction over Ebonheart, Seyda Neen, and a few other places, or if they have been bought out by Helseth or some other native government office. Either way, they'll still be joinable, headquartered in Seyda Neen, and focused on government stuff like collecting taxes and chasing off pirates.

5) Why? The simple reason is that we want to branch out on Vvardenfell and make some groups joinable that weren't in TESIII, such as the Census and Excise, the Ashlanders, the Daedric Cults, and maybe the Ordinators. There are also slated to be new groups like the Betmeri and the Nordic Colonists. In order to make this mod managable, we decided that we need to scale down some of the other factions. The Legion really wasn't used all that much and nobody here had really expressed any interest in it. The Guilds were also somewhat repetitive and had the inherant problem of integration with the core game (do you keep ranks? do all of our quests need to be harder than those in Cyrodill?). If you haven't noticed, most TESIII mods do not add on to existing factions, primarily for the reason that it gets really complicated. Therefore, in order to devote our time and resources to other areas, and to make this socio-political setup different from what it was in TESIII, we're proposing this consolidation plan.

So that's the concept so far. Fire away with endorsements, objections, ideas, whatever. Just please try to understand the reasons for this idea and the need to be practical.

[Ixidors Bane]

Ok, I'm am going to reitterate what I said over on the Factions thread, and state that I think this is a bad idea. Yes there would be some good points to it, but in the end I still think that the three major guilds in Vvardenfell should be seperated from the Legion. I do like the idea of combining factions and such to give us less work, but even if the Legion is moving out of Morrowind, I don't think the remnants would combine powers with any other guild than maybe the Fighters.

About the withdraw of the Empire from Morrowind while I'm on it. Why would they withdraw from there? The Empire is exactly that, they wouldn't want to completely abandon parts of their empire, exspecially when they already have control over parts of it. I think they would take troops from providences they have more control over so as to keep a constant grip on every province, rather than a stronger grip on one, while lossing others (Morrowind and Elsweyr for example). I think they would want to keep as many troops stationed in Morrowind and Vvardenfell as they could. They don't want to loose territory.

Also, the Oblivion gates, aren't just opening up in Cyrodiil (at least I wouldn't think that they would, even though that's the scope of this game), so even if we might not have gates in our mod, that doesn't mean there are none opening in Morrowind. The Empire would want to keep troops stationed in all providences for defense purposes.

Now back onto the combining of factions. I think that if we do combine some (and I think we should) then combine more similar ones. The Imperial Legion, Census and Excise, Nine Divines (Imperial Cult), and East Empire Trade Company could all be combined into the Imperial Union easily, and when joined could be just like what you are talking about with the sub-guilds. Depending on who you talk to in what city, you will receive quests ranging from tax collecting, to finding smuggling , to solving a murder, to preaching the Nine Divines, and everything in between. That would combine factions and make less work for us, while keeping all the same factions (plus more) that are in Oblivion still intact.

To solve the line of quests of the F/M/T Guilds in Cyrodiil to us, perhaps there will be a check of your rank in the guild when you go to receive quests from those three guilds? If you are high ranking, then the flag will make it so you skip all the lower ranking quests and so on.

Think Ajira from the Mages Guild in Balmora. You go through a series of quests for her, then you have to go off and gain ranks in the Guild before you can come back and do more for her. The same could be applied here. If you never joined the guild in Curodiil, but join up in Vvardenfell, then you start at the bottom, but if you rise in ranks in the Cyrodiil branch, then when you come over to Vvardenfell, you only have to do quests that pertain to your rank. Maybe there can even be a way of going back and doing lower level quests optionally if you wanted to.

Again, soory for the long post. Let me know if anything doesn't make much sense, and I'll see if I can explain what I mean better. :goodjob:

[KuKulzA]

EDIT: sorry for the bad organization of my post.... i am very very sick and soon to go to bed... then do homework. so forgive me, and bear with the confusion
I hope my mumbo-jumbo of ideas and concerns will bring up topics for intellectual discussion....



I can see a few problems:
1. the factions together don't seem to fit neatly into a roles except for Fighters and Legion
2. in TES3 they DID say the Legions were ready to pull out of Cyrodiil BECAUSE of political unrest, they did not realize that Oblivion was gonna attack
3. the Guilds would pose alot of complications and such
---------------------------what I think----------------------------------
1.
for the Fighter's Guild and Imperial Legion....
notice how it was high ranking Fighters Guild mercenaries guarding the docks of Ebonheart?
it seems that the Fighters Guild and the Imperial Legion cooperate on many things besides the security of an area. The two groups are slightly different roles as one is a standing army and the other is a mercenary guild loyal to the Empire. The Fighters Guild has expert soldiers, but not formation types...
As for Mages Guild and Thieves Guild... they have their own guild wars with Telvanni and Cammona Tong but only the Mages Guild goes on to be friendly with Imperial Legion.... technically, the Thieves Guild is illagel and all, but the Legion would rather have the thieves guild around than the Cammona Tong...
2.
so you guys both have good points, the legions would remain if there was a Tamriel-wide invasion... which we THINK is happening.... but then again the Legions were on their way out... it is confuzing, lets wait for The Pocket Guide to the Empire before we do any deciding on this...
3.
Alright.... there are their conflicts:
Fighters Guild doesn't like Thieves, they don't really like Cammona Tong except for their dead leader ....Thieves doesn't like Fighters and hate Cammona Tong gangs
making them all one union with so many different agendas and skills and such is kinda bad in its own way....
BUT
the strength of these factions on Vvardenfell is waning. The Fighters Guild may be strong. The Mages Guild rid of a hard-headed Trebonius, and the Thieves Guild improved its image with a secret Bal Molagmer compaign....
the Legions which are the backbone of thei security is either weaker now or gone. Unifying, despite their animosities, would be in their best interests.
advantages of this would be:
cutting down on the work load (we already got plenty)
combining the weak, old, and less wide-ranged guilds


a few things that I disagree with Vrenir,
the Thieves Guild is illegal... they SHOULD be imprisoned for their crimes or at least highly fined... that would be bad if they were to be the Imperial Businessmen....
should Imperials lose direct control (Cyrodiil's orders) it will be Helseth that fully rules that place
I think that this Imperial thing will be only for Vvardenfell becaus eof unique situations there


I would like to say that although I think it is a good way to lighten the load and to make things practical... it is not "life-like" "realistically" in the game world if you know what I mean
Fighters Guild and Legion merging is alright and understandable
Mages Guild and Legion merging is reasonable... not ideal....
Thieves.... its like putting a robber and a cop together and telling them they need to be buddies

now maybe if there are a bunch of gangster coming after both of them... but as far as I know, that scenario is in movies...




I dunno, personally I'd rather clump the Imperial Guilds together... though the wide rnage of skills and agendas is a problem... but this is just an idea... so... there is my comments and all...

[Vrenir]

Good points, KuKulzA, especially on the Thieves' Guild angle. The Legion would end up hiring FG members to fill their depleted ranks, so a merger makes perfect sense. Without the overwhelming presence of the Legion in Vvardenfell, the MG would need the Imperial Union's support to protect them from the Telvani who would otherwise wipe them out in nothing flat. The TG though....

It does pose a problem, and the only reason I could think for the other Imperials to get along with the Thieves would be desperation. The Thieves operate covertly across Vvardenfell and they own pubs and such in most of the major cities. They are also good at getting information and doing minor covert activities (obviously not Blade-level stuff, but still sort of similar in field). With the gradual and progressive closure of the Legion forts, the Imperial Union needs a way to stay on top of affairs in the areas that they used to occupy, and the TG would be able to provide that. They could monitor political movements in Telvani and Redoran lands, make certain via bribery and subversion that Imperial citizens still living outside places like Ebonheart were allowed to live without too much hassle. In a pinch, they could also be called on to make deals with local businessmen and political leaders. It would be foolish to expect the TG to act legally and not to try and line their own pockets periodically, but with Vvardenfell no longer under Imperial rule and law, I don't see why the Legion would have a problem with these activities. (They might not respect them, but so long as they're not targetted, they might view the benefits of the arrangement worth degrading themselves by the alliance.)

That's my only current theory to help the TG make sense in the Imperial Union. I also really have a hard time seeing them doing much beyond getting slaughtered by the Cammona Tong if they aren't under Imperial protection of some form, and that really wouldn't be much fun to play. Of course, we could always put them seperate with a very short and tragic quest-line that ends with the PC escaping the massacre of the Thieves' Guild.

[Ixidors Bane]

Why massacre the Thieves Guild at all? Maybe if the PC joins the TG, then he can work his way through a short series of quests where he ends up (maybe not completely saving) lessing the threat from the Commana Tong? Now if the PC joins the CT, then the TG would most liekly be destroyed (which sounds cool as well ).

But again, about the merging. Ok, if you are so insitant on it, then maybe the merging of the Fighters Guild and the Mages Guild into the Legion could work, but I am still against it, and the Thives Guild would most defiantely not work very well in that senario. I would hate to have to work at it all again from the beginning if I was the top of either of those guilds in Cyrodiil, and I know there will be many other player out there who will just hate the idea of having to do the same.

I just don't like the idea of not giving the PC credit for his accomplishment (if there are any) when he gets to Vvardenfell. I still say leave the three guilds alone to their own actions, but have the FG and the MG depend on the Legion for many of their quests. Make them seperate guilds and factions, but make their questslines interact with each other. If done that way, we would be able to make more quests that didn't have much to do with rank, but the perseverence of the guild and relations to one another in Vvardenfell.

I'm just trying to see this through the eyes of a player of our mod. I know it will be more work for us, but some things just can't be skipped out on. The player isn't going to like that his ranks and accomplishments mean almost nothing to the guild he is leader of just because they are stationed in another providence. They are still the same guild and are linked all over the world. I'm sorry, and I know this is only a game and not made to be completely realistic, but that is just a little much.

I say make each guild or faction their own seperate team, and link them through qeustlines, not by making an all new faction. :yes:

[Vrenir]

I could well agree with you if only I understood how the linking of the guilds with those in Cyrodill would be feesible. I've looked at a ton of mods for TESIII, including a lot of faction mods, and none of them linked to the pre-existing factions. I also know that TR had the same guilds as on Vvardenfell planned, but was going to make them seperate (note that I do not see how this has anything to do with their hands-off Vvardenfell policy because all compatibility seems to be required on their end). I am not a programmer, but that makes me think that at least in the former game, it was not an easy thing to tack quests onto an existing faction. With the faction system supposedly even more complex and inter-related in TESIV, I am highly skeptical of our abilities to do this. If anybody can tell me that I have an incorrect assessment of the obstacles, please do so. I'd personally love to play through in seperate Guilds, provided that we have people who want to plan them and that they are different enough in plotline from both their TESIII and TESIV Cyrodill counterparts.

[Ixidors Bane]

Originally posted by Vrenir
I could well agree with you if only I understood how the linking of the guilds with those in Cyrodill would be feesible. I've looked at a ton of mods for TESIII, including a lot of faction mods, and none of them linked to the pre-existing factions. I also know that TR had the same guilds as on Vvardenfell planned, but was going to make them seperate (note that I do not see how this has anything to do with their hands-off Vvardenfell policy because all compatibility seems to be required on their end). I am not a programmer, but that makes me think that at least in the former game, it was not an easy thing to tack quests onto an existing faction. With the faction system supposedly even more complex and inter-related in TESIV, I am highly skeptical of our abilities to do this. If anybody can tell me that I have an incorrect assessment of the obstacles, please do so. I'd personally love to play through in seperate Guilds, provided that we have people who want to plan them and that they are different enough in plotline from both their TESIII and TESIV Cyrodill counterparts.

I tried to explain a simple solution to that problem in my first post on this thread. Here, I'll quote myself from earlier and try to explain it better.

To solve the line of quests of the F/M/T Guilds in Cyrodiil to us, perhaps there will be a check of your rank in the guild when you go to receive quests from those three guilds? If you are high ranking, then the flag will make it so you skip all the lower ranking quests and so on.

Think Ajira from the Mages Guild in Balmora. You go through a series of quests for her, then you have to go off and gain ranks in the Guild before you can come back and do more for her. The same could be applied here. If you never joined the guild in Curodiil, but join up in Vvardenfell, then you start at the bottom, but if you rise in ranks in the Cyrodiil branch, then when you come over to Vvardenfell, you only have to do quests that pertain to your rank. Maybe there can even be a way of going back and doing lower level quests optionally if you wanted to.

What i was trying to get at was that it wouldn't matter what quests you've done for the guilds, but what rank you are in them. Depending on that ranks, we can narrow or broden the scope of the quests for the guilds in our mod.

I'm thinking that if the PC comes over to Vvardenfell right away, wihtout gaining any ranks, let's say the Mages Guild. Then when he gets here, he can join the MG on Vvardenfell and work his way through all the quests to make it to the top. But say he is already a Wizard (3rd from top) and comes over to Vvardenfell. Then being such a higher ranking person, when he goes and looks for quests from the MG, a flag will turn on saying he is a really high rank already, and he won't have to do many of the lower level quests that are just FedEx or such quests that are there for the lower ranking/leveled players. I was thinking that, if the PC really wanted to, there might be a way to go do those quests as an extra bonus option for them to choose.

- OR -

Sratch the flags, and have it so that each of the three Guilds (Fighters, Mages, Thieves) have fairly short questlines, and make the quests in them more plot-centric to the Guild. Then it wouldn't feel like their just sending out an errand boy for some measly little item or quest, but instead each quest would be doing something important for the Guild to survive (like making positive relation between the Fighters and the Legion, or helping to discover a new spell in the Mages Guild, etc.). Something that it doesn't really matter what level or rank your at, they are more general quests. Of course there might still be some fetch quests, and go kill this person of such, but even then, it is possible to level those creatures and enemies to the PC's level.

Do you see what I'm trying to get at? ?( I;m trying to find ways around the ranking problem by trying to either use it to pass up old, low-leveled quests, or just ignore it most of the time for more plot oriented quests.

[KuKulzA]

I have an idea! (as dumb as it may be)

how about the Imperial Legion and Guilds are made into:
(with rename suggestions below them)
1. a Legion+Fighters organization
-Vvardenfell Guard, Vvardenfell Legion, Colonial Guard, Colonial Legion, etc.
2. Mages Guild*
-Colonial Mages Guild, Mage Missionaries,
3. Thieves Guild
*Mages Guild serves to teach rudimentary literacy, magical skills, and such. In TES3, Movis Darys in the Ald ruhn M.Guild said he was there to learn how to read. He was also a Dark Brotherhood initiate.

these colonial factions would basically be the local interpretation of the guilds. Although they WERE the guilds, they have changed their role slightly and their name due to their instability in the Vvardenfell region.
so maybe you can't enter until you are say... rank 6 in the Cyrodiil Fighters, Mages, or Thieves Guild...
then they will say... "oh! it is the high ranking member from Cyrodiil come to give the colonials a hand! great... we have the job for you..."

and so you, as an already higher ranking member back at the overall HQ, will be given a possibly 5-7 quest-line full of intriguing and tough quests... because you are (to them) the big guy coming to help the struggling colony... and if I remember correctly, the guilds in TES3 were struggling to survive, Fighters Guild almost falling under Cammona control, Thieves needing to improve their public image, and Mages having scuffles with Telvanni and a hard-headed Trebonius....
so thats why you will have such a short and decisive rise to power in the colonial guilds, because they are desperate for someone to change the tables around and get them back on track to survive

therefore instead of 4, we cut it to 3, 2 of them real short, and the Legion+Fighters a bit longer to facilitate the Legionaire training quests...


there's my idea!

[Ixidors Bane]

Ok, maybe I've been thinking about this wrong. Due to the recent decline in Vvardenfell the Fighters Guild and the Imperial Legion decided to merge their efforts to become a completely new Faction? So in essence there is no Fighters Guild or Imperial Legion in Vvardenfell, just the Vvardenfell Guard Faction (or whatever we want to call it)?

Using this idea, there wouldn't be a change to the Mages or Thieves Guilds, or to the Legion, which you can't join in Cyrodiil anyways. The only change really from Cyrodiil to Vvardenfell would be the absence of the Fighters Guild, because it is now merged with the Legion. Therefore all rankings in the Fighters Guild in Cyrodiil has no standing in Vvardenfell. You'll have to start at the bottom and work your way up like any other guild or faction (although maybe we can put in a bonus if you are a certain ranking in the Fighters and/or Mages and/or Thieves Guilds from Cyrodiil).

Maybe what KuKulzA said about having to be a certain rank in the Cyrodiil Guilds could apply tot he Mages and Thieves in Vvardenfell?

If you are below a certain rank and you try to do quests in Vvardenfell:
"Sorry, <insert rank here>, but due to the instability of recent times, we don't have any jobs for one such as you. I suggest you go back to the HQ in Cyrodiil and see if they have anything for you."

And if you're above <certain rank> then they say what KuKulzA said:
"oh! it is the high ranking member from Cyrodiil come to give the colonials a hand! great... we have the job for you..."

And you start the questlines from there.

Seems like a good combination of all of our idea's?

[KuKulzA]

yes....
I think compromise is a birth of an embodiement of common interests

the Mages Guild and Thieves Guild of Vvardenfell should be renamed I think... even if just a little...
and have special high up quests only for hotshots from the Imperial Province...

2 factors I am thinkings of
1. quest-lin shortening vs. clumping- both for practicality
so this way, by making the quest-lines shorter, instead of clumping them all as one faction, we make in 3 factions with short (but HARD) quests... you quickly rise to be leader of the colonial branch
2. renaming and counting a seperate faction (technically)
maybe we should rename them and also count them as technically a different faction although all NPCs will refer to it as its (name), and then mention that it is the localized version of the ___ Guild (mages/thieves)....

so for names...

for the Thieves I was going to say Bal Molagmer... these were originally an ancient robin-hood Dunmer group that stole from the rich and gave to the poor... but they died out long ago
the Thieves Guild tried to immitate them to gain more popularily with commoners...
but then, they aren't officially Bal Molagmer, that was just a secret they had with the high-up THieves...


the clumping idea of Vrenir rids us of faction work... the fewer&higher quests idea of Ixidors rids us of more quest works.... the compromise would be shorter but more elite Guild quest-lines and 3 instead of 4 factions...
where as one would be 1 factions and the quests for all the subgroups and the other would be all factions with a bit fewer quests



compromise sounds good to all of you?