The Capital of House Redoran

[KuKulzA]

about lore:

I think all of us will basically go by official lore, an dunofficial if it suits us. Afterall it is unofficial. Thus atleast I choose to see it as lore that is not mandatory in a sense, it can be mentioned, but it isn't a necessity. Not that we ignoring it. Plus, in Silgrad Tower's case, they have the small issue of the Redoran capitol. Vvardenfell has that weird Trial of Vivec thing.

about capitol:

so how will we settle this? It would make sense Ald-ruhn cannot be the capitol now, if it ever was, though it was certainly influential and powerful though small before. Soluthis, might evolve into an influential place and I think it was however, I don't know if it can be the capital. Our best choices seem to be BlackLight or Kragenmoore.
Now if we go with Blacklight, and damn do I was Rodan were here, then we need to decide... to what extent is Imperial control? They'd love to have some control since it is a great port, it monitors trade, protects the region, etc. and they want to keep an eye on the Redoran, the greatest warrior-House. However, they know the Redoran ARE very militaristic, thus, would they really take it all over? Who knows. Maybe they only took over the docks and made it their own, and put in a fort, leaving the Redoran part of the city intact... hrug: thats up to Rodan but i think thats a good way to reconcile.... to havea small but powerful Imperial district and the rest being Redoran
or for Kragenmoore it too can be interesting. Seeing as how Hlaalu are big there.

[raggidman]

Hope everyone has read Caiu's Letter by now.

I did a stint with gamingsource.net as admin, with an Oblivion speciality. I learned there that Robin (the owner) is an accuracy demon, and IF I had tried to read stuff into Lore that was not there he would have torn a strip off me something awfull. There is nothing in Caius Letter to decide that either Blacklight or Ald'Ruhn have to have been the Redoran Capital. But I find the fact that he was in Kraggemoore significant - would he go somewhere of no note? Or was he posted to nowhere because he a dying drug addict?

This just feels as though someones are making stuff up, pretending that things exist that do not and that things that do exist do not, without showing their real (good or bad) reasons for doing so = not a good basis for Lore. hrug: You get no kudos for misdirection.

It is very clear from what has been said that Blacklight as it has been modded to date is an Imperial City, and that Ald'Ruhn (which do longer exists let me remind you) was the Vvardenfell District Council centre, NOT the Redoran Capital.

If you do not like House Redoran then don't try to mod it ... start modding the Hlaalu Homelands (oh right, that would take about 5 seconds as all the rest they stole from others ).

Kraggenmoore stands alone as a genuine contender because if we choose to create a TES4 Kraggenmoore we can create it as fundamentally Redoran in architecture (with new Hlaalu cheapskate buildings trying to horn in on things) and fill much of the City with Hlaalu NPCs all plotting to take over the Redoran Government! Great Fun.

Don't get me wrong - I rather like the feel I get from tales of the TES3 Blacklight, and what I have seen of the other cities is ST, but none of them are or were intended to be the Capital.

We have a lot of work even without the Redoran Capital - actually we do not need it to make this a Great mod within its own terms - so lets not complicate and mess up our good work to date by trying to change our own past.

Once all within the current Borders of ST/4 we can take a look at what bob#### has accomplished with TES3 Kraggenmore. If any of you are that interested, I repeat, you can give him a helping hand - he has loads to offer - and damn well earn the privilege of creating the Lore that you wish top mess with the hard way.
X(

Oh and Silgrad Tower has Councillors from THREE GREAT HOUSES plus it is surrounded by Hlaalu Arcitecture and so cannot be the historic REDORAN capital - more X( Don't you believe in what you have created?

[KuKulzA]

I don't quite understand but I think you are saying Kragenmoore 'better be' the capitol?

I dunno... maybe there is a council house in Blacklight AND Kragenmoore (and there WAS one in Ald-ruhn). Maybe a capitol is only where the council convenes... and thus making it the most influential.... hrug:

[TheImperialDragon]

Contrived border incidents in Black Marsh ended inconclusively, but the swampy terrain did not favor legion and navy coordination. Against the legions massed west of Silgrad Tower and Kragenmoor, and the legions west of Blacklight and Cormaris View, Morrowind had pitifully small militias stiffened by small companies of Redoran mercenaries and elite units of house nobles and Temple Ordinators and Armigers. Further complicating matters was the refusal of Indoril, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni to garrison the western borders; Indoril and Dres proposed, rather than defend the western border, instead to withdraw to the interior and fight a guerilla war. With Hlaalu advocating accommodation, and Telvanni remaining neutral, Redoran therefore faced the prospect of standing alone against the Empire.

The situation changed radically when Vivec appeared in person in Vivec City to announce his negotiation of a treaty with Emperor Tiber Septim, reorganizing Morrowind as a province of the Empire, but guaranteeing "all rights of faith and self-government." A shocked Temple hierarchy, which apparently had not been consulted, greeted the announcement with awkward silence. Indoril swore they would resist to the death, with the loyal support of Dres, while Redoran, grateful for a graceful excuse to avoid facing the legions unsupported, joined with Hlaalu in welcoming the agreement. Telvanni, seeing which way the wind blew, joined with Hlaalu and Redoran in supporting the treaty.

From "On Morrowind" in TIL. I guess this discreetly indicates that Kragenmoore was a Redoran city at that time, but over time, the House Wars turned to Hlaalu's favour, and they pretty much took over Kragenmoore.

Who do the Redoran hate more? Hlaalu or Imperial?

What the best possible explanation might be is that Redoran had total control in Ald'Ruhn, so that naturally was their capital before it got destroyed.

What next?

The Redoran are still establishing a new government, either in Blacklight, Soluthis, or Kragenmoore, with whatever few surviving councilors and representatives are left.

So if we go with the idea that Ald'Ruhn was the former capital, with the council buildings that were there, etc... Then that could explain why they are where they are (wherever that is).

I personally think that Blacklight would be the best option, Soluthis as a second option, then Kragenmoore.

Regarding raggidman's views on CC's letter, I guess that is understandable, but I think that the mention of a Temple of Akatosh is also significant, as well as the Hlaalu presence.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by TheImperialDragon
Who do the Redoran hate more? Hlaalu or Imperial?

You're a warrior who fought for your nation, saw your family get slaughtered and then your allies turn on you

so who you hate more?
the invaders who ruined your people or the traitors who allowed your enemies victory?

it can go either way

[TheImperialDragon]

I was thinking that Blacklight could be expanded, or something along those lines. It would have to be expanded so that Blacklight was larger than Soluthis, and smaller than Silgrad City, which is still pretty damn big.

I think Blacklight should be mostly Redoran, as lore states that it is a Redoran City, Blacklight existed before the Imperial takeover, so it wouldn't make sense to have it entirely an Imperial City, and it wouldn't make sense for it not to be somewhat Dunmer-homeland style.

Other ideas put on the map I made, just ideas, nothing more, nothing less.

Silgrad City is neutral, why it is multicolour.
Red = candidates for being a capital, but I think Soluthis is pretty much decided on not being the capital.

[KuKulzA]

hmmm

we should discuss things with Rodan
he might want to know what we's thinkin of his city :yes:

raised to such importance possibly

[Razorwing]

Calm down raggidman, the TES3 mod does not have to blindly follow everything that goes on in the TES4 mod. In fact one of the reasons I personally looked forward to getting started on the TES4 mod so much was that it gave a chance to examine everything we've done and try to do it better in those few cases we've made mistakes. That the old team made the Tower of Silgrad in Imperial design and situated it on the town's outskirts were one of those things, as that contradicts the only snippet of lore there is about it on every count. But it's human to err, so I don't want to knock on any oldies, it's just good to avoid repeating mistakes when possible.

TheImperialDragon: It goes with the territory that people put different values into a ethereal word like 'lore'. For me, it's about keeping immersion, as the player has learned things about the world and many of them would be put off if he saw dark elves with wings or things like that. That's where I think lore serves as a valuable ruleset. But 'keeping immersion' is in my mind limited to what the player has learned from the Elder Scrolls games, not just because it's the only lore that's official but also because it never changes and is easy enough to get an overview of (by running text searches in the old CS for instance).

If we start treating semi-official lore equally we're bound to run into headaches. What if someone finds an article MK wrote that undermines the background of a huge quest of ours, would it have to be reworked? Or if another former dev wrote an article about Silgrad saying the tower was actually built by the Dwemer, would it have to be remodelled? Not committing to following semi-official lore in the first place means we can avoid problems like that.

I think the case of Blacklight is a good example of that, because the Morrowind concept map was released a long time after the game's release and after work on the city got started and the information in it undermined the way it had been laid out in the mod. Granted, the concept map has special significance and I won't argue against it. In my opinion Blacklight or Ald'ruhn are the two candidates for Redoran capital and I'm fine with either one.

[TheImperialDragon]

Originally posted by Razorwing
Calm down raggidman, the TES3 mod does not have to blindly follow everything that goes on in the TES4 mod. In fact one of the reasons I personally looked forward to getting started on the TES4 mod so much was that it gave a chance to examine everything we've done and try to do it better in those few cases we've made mistakes. That the old team made the Tower of Silgrad in Imperial design and situated it on the town's outskirts were one of those things, as that contradicts the only snippet of lore there is about it on every count. But it's human to err, so I don't want to knock on any oldies, it's just good to avoid repeating mistakes when possible.

Originally posted by Razorwing
If we start treating semi-official lore equally we're bound to run into headaches. What if someone finds an article MK wrote that undermines the background of a huge quest of ours, would it have to be reworked? Or if another former dev wrote an article about Silgrad saying the tower was actually built by the Dwemer, would it have to be remodelled? Not committing to following semi-official lore in the first place means we can avoid problems like that.

Granted, that is a possibility, but I will say that almost all the lore the devs are writing has to do with former Elder Scrolls games, and not lands that haven't been created by them.

I admit, although I'm not a big fan of unofficial lore, the community takes it as given facts, and by not following whatever little there is in the unofficial lore (there is hardly anything that would relate to Silgrad Tower, if any).

So, really, this discussion wouldn't lead anywhere productive anyway.

EDIT: Other than emphasis that Hlaalu has influence over Kragenmoore, which is also implied by the concept map.

Originally posted by Razorwing
I think the case of Blacklight is a good example of that, because the Morrowind concept map was released a long time after the game's release and after work on the city got started and the information in it undermined the way it had been laid out in the mod. Granted, the concept map has special significance and I won't argue against it. In my opinion Blacklight or Ald'ruhn are the two candidates for Redoran capital and I'm fine with either one.

I think the concept map is important, because not going by that, and going by what official lore tells us, for all we know, Narsis could be the Indoril capital. Doesn't make sense, but isn't stated by official lore either. Lore doesn't even mention Port Telvanis.

[bob196045]

I love a good debate

This question has been posted a few times in the Offical forum and with all the same results Ald Ruhn......... I don't think many people really read the question

Ald Ruhn is Officially documented as the "District" Seat, Morrowind is not a District, Morrowind is a Province... Vvardenfell is a District

This would imply that their is another city which in the past was the Houses Capital City

I think we all agree on that part

I really don't think we will ever get an official answer from one of the Beth Developers, possibly we will, but I doubt it.

If were concerned with not breaking offical lore or having to make changes if and when Beth decides to make an expansion or a new ES which includes such cities as Blacklight and Kragenmoor, Silgrad etc. etc. or if someone decides to answer that question.

Then we can just leave it open or base our decision on the little bits of information that is available and hope for the best, really thats all anyone can do.


Enjoy
Bob