The Capital of House Redoran

[TheImperialDragon]

Originally posted by bob196045
Horay TID got TES3

now get busy modding

I need this and that and this and this :lmao:

Conrgats

*Ahem*

What level-ish around-ish? :evil:

Obviously, I've played through the game and expansions before, but on the XBox.

EDIT: Oh. Off topic.

[raggidman]

Originally posted by KuKulzA
actually I think I;ve unearthed a lot of info regarding the problem...

on the concept map of Morrowind which was released a long time after the game...
the city of Kragenmoore was Hlaalu
however somehow TR was led to believe it was Redoran... understandable
Kragenmoore has a private Temple school, meaning a strong presence of the Temple, yet recently growing Akatosh worship... but also during the Imperial invasion all along the western border was the presence of Redoran mercenaries which kept the border strong for awhile...
so I think both have influenced the area... but its probably stronger in Hlaalu favor. The Hlaalu WERE Temple-worshippers before the Imperial invasion... they were devoted, but then again they were mostly small time merchants, traders, and farmers.... but with the defeat they quickly rose to power and made themselves ethically... flexible...
the western Deshaan clans are somewhere in between Hlaalu, Indoril, and Redoran... in the southern area, more between Redoran and Hlaalu... but since it was Hlaalu in the concept map...
I think our best bet is to make it Hlaalu

so ever since there has been dispute over that

and of course though TES3 Blacklight was well made... it didn't seem like no Redoran capitol... so people's all confused...

I'm sure many of us read the stuff about the wishful thinking of our favorite Blade re Akatosh in TIL ... but you have quoted nothing that shows it is all Hlaalu. What you have given us is the Hlaalu take on the situation. and of course, being treacherous and conscienceless liars and scoundrels to a man they will claim that all of Morrowind is Hlaalu if they can get some fool to listen and profit thereby. Much of the fan fic, the ex-dev contributions and the in-game stuff is written on just such a basis.

But we here are not at that stage, we are discussing the overview. And to do so usefully we have to do so without prejudice, and from the point of a producer, not fans.

Takle a look at the maos that the mayors have made of 'their Cities. = no Capital in sight.

You have made a very skillful presentation KKA that is fundamentally Hlaalu propaganda. But I feel that you have taken it too far to be considered as the ground zero basis.

If you want an interesting game then you have to include all sides of this kind of 'argument' in the game and give the player the choice - or although you end up 'winning' your argument before the game has begun, nothing is left for the player.

It is a situation where you have to see your favorite as part of an overall set of positions that all have to be catered for or there is no role-playing left, then the player can only slavishly follow the sole remaining thread of consequence = boring, single flavour, no choice, vanilla is the only flavour we have.

[KuKulzA]

raggidman, here me out ok?


it sucks I know. Personally I'd rather Kragenmoore be Redoran but this shows the DEVs wanted it to be Hlaalu ever since.. oh before Morrowind was released... this is one of the things I referred to...


all hope's not lost but just hear me out and dont call me some Mr.propaganda, thats a bit rude

Inconsistency 1
if you notice, in the concept map, Stonewood is Redoran. Now Stonewood COULD'VE been Redoran at one time, or heavily Redoran influenced since Stonewood/Balmora was once Vivec's Palace, however that was forsaken and later on Ouda Odai, the great river of Vvardenfell, the Hlaalu made a trade-town which was to be their council seat of Vvardenfell.
Inconsistency 2
Necrom, supposedly a mainly Indoril-run Temple city for the dead and the Salen Vulgate are Dres on this map. No evidence of this is found in more recent lore. I would've made sense for the Dres to have this territory but not anymore consider what we know now.

also note the shape of Vvardenfell...


I also have a few points, cause we know that the power balance in Morrowind significantly shifted after the Imperial invasion...

[1] There was a line of militias from the Silgrad area all the way down to Kragenmoore of small local militias stengthened by Redoran, Ordinators, and Armigers. However these were tiny armies. More importantly though is the fact that the Redoran and Temple warriors were able to be all along the area. This means either..
-the Redoran and Temple influence is very strong and thus can extend that far even into Hlaalu lands.
- since the Redoran were said to be mercenaries along this defensive line, it is possible that Hlaalu hired them to keep Kragenmoore safe
- also possibl eis that the area was not very strong towards any house and had influences from Redoran, Hlaalu, and Temple
remember that... Redoran were allowed to deploy troops this far down... there is a Temple private school in Kragenmoore... and that the DEVs had intended it to be Hlaalu.

[2] Some way up north of Kragenmoore is the Bodrums area where Vivec had both a great victory and a great loss against and to the Imperials. Now if you look at the different conflicting strategies of the Dunmer...
- Redoran wanted to hold them off at the passes. It makes sense that if you can seal the armies behind narrow passes you should be safe... but not everyone agreed. However it shows that the Redoran/Temple had influence in the area for sure.... thus Kragenmoore may have been a city that was loosely Hlaalu at best
- Indoril and Dres wanted to fight an interior guerilla war. Even if they did so, the Imperial would have to run into Hlaalu lands and woul dhave to pillage and burn their way to supply themselves, this would either cause the Hlaalu to unwillingly surrender or fight to the death against the enemy despite their stereotypical cowardice. Thus the Indoril and Dres can be a sure a tenacious economic rival woul dbe suppressed and not be traitorous in the war. However the others had ideas of their own, this does not influence the Kragenmoore situation either way but helps me explain my next point
- the Hlaalu wanted to comply with the Imperials sensing the disunity, and knowing the superiority of the Imperials. Of course they did not hold any oaths to defend Morrowind. The Telvanni were far from Imperial attack, so they were neutral. However, had Hlaalu felt it would be safe they WOULD'VE sided with the rest of Morrowind, or else if the Dunmer won they would gang-bang Hlaalu like crazy for being traitors. This implies they had assets near the border that could be attacked by Imperials, and had reason to take the risk of allying with the Imperials against Morrowind, or at leats not helping Morrowind. Thus strengthens the case for Kragenmoore being Hlaalu.

[3] After the conquest of Morrowind and the Armistice... Hlaalu was said to have made several violent coups taking advantage of the Indoril mass suicide of the nobility. Ebonheart (Ra'athrim) was Mournhold's sister-city. Why then is it Hlaalu? Cause it was part of a slightly larger House Mora which joined hlaalu. Thus through different means Hlaalu gained control of the area around Narsis....
- it seems so unlikely that Indoril being the strongest and largest Great House prior to the war would have only three cities. They were the most metropolitan House and had the most advanced architecture, weaponry, and social hierarchy of the Houses. They did have many rural populations but since they once extended to Ebonheart, it is likely that most if not all fo the eastern Hlaalu towns across the Ouda Thir were Indoril.
- they extended as far north as Ebonheart, is it not safe to assume the severely weakened Redoran would've lost Kragenmoore to the Hlaalu even if it was their's? And If it wasn't their's Imperials could've easily placed a Hlaalu to be the duke of Kragenmoore. It is a strategic city, and its likel ythe Imperials would've placed a Hlaalu or the Hlaalu would've taken such a strategic and close spot, far from the strongest of Redoran power in the north

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[/hr]

now last few things to consider...


1.) on the most recent TES4 map... Blacklight was the major city of the northwest this tells us why...
-a- the Redoran colonies of Vvardenfell extend north to south in an arc from the northwest coast to the interior ashlands, but not the Bitter Coast where their southern mainland territory is adjacent to. This tells us that they don't have enough power in the south to colonize that far down
-b- this also tells us that the Hlaalu have enough influence in the southwest and coast to colonize Vvardenfell lands just to the east across the Inner Sea of southern Redoran lands.
2.) Kragenmoor is not even mentioned, possibly because southwestern trade routes are no longer as prominent since the land of Morrowind was opened up to Tamrielic trade instead of the isolated state it was in before
3.) Port Telvannis is not mentioned. This means the knowledge of the Imperials is limited far to the eastern area. This also means that what information and influence they know and have in mostly in the west. They would actively thwart Redoran attempts at power and actively promote Hlaalu's. They know well enough that indoril is like the sick-man of Morrowind and the Dres and Telvanni could care less if left alone. Thus is makes a lot of sense for the area around Kragenmoore to be totally Haalu influenced, though Redoran clans or related to Redoran might still inhabit the area,

---

[/hr]

I know you want something interesting, and I think Kragenmoore situation that you propose would be interesting but...
byw now if any Redoran influence is left it is minimal and largely indirect. Blacklight, being under attack by Nords, being closely watched by Imperials, their economy run by the East Empire Company... their neightbors to the western mountains the Mountain orcs, and the slow and tough decy of the tenacious Redoran also makes for a strong story.

and don't diss vanilla, its one of my favorite ice creams



damn that took me an hour, thanks for reading it

[TheImperialDragon]

To add on to KuKulzA's reply, it would be hardly sensible to put the capital somewhere so close to the border of Hlaalu (their lifelong bitter enemies), if not already in Hlaalu territory. Blacklight makes more sense because it is farther away from any hostile border, that includes the landmass on Vvardenfell.

[raggidman]

Read it, read it again, still processing, but:

What is missing here in the resolution of these these arguments is the timeline and style of the participants ...

But let us start with the second map:

If there was such a major coup as the capture wholesale of a Redoran District then that would be clear history, just as the Capital of the Telvanni would be on any reliable map.

The fact that the Telvanni capital and so many other towns and cities suggests that the cartographer was not particularly knowledgeable, and so how can one draw conclusions based on such a map as to the reasons for missing information? (other than that the source from which the cartographers were themselves not reliable?) Certainly the doings of the Great Powers of the region cannot be based on such poor pickings.


Back to the timeline and such:

The Hlaalu started out as a comparitively small-time loose association of traders you say? Then the Redoran would not have been concerned about them when establishing their Capital in the Historic past.

The way that the Hlaalu work is to infiltrate and defraud before attempting assassination and then direct military action only in small matters if possible ...

How did they grow? Because their enemies had no idea that there was a war going on at the start. It would only have been later that they were recognised as the threat that they are. By that time the Empire had eclared their hand and invaded ... IN THE NORTH mainly as I understand your potted histories, thought they did threaten Kraggenmoore it does seem as though that does not fit with their general pattern of colonisation. After all why worry about southern Redoran areas when no doubt the Hlaalu were already busy carving those up from the inside.

Waiiit a minute you sez, what is this about the Hlaalu? Didn't they only start their Imperialisation only recently?

True enuf I sez, on the surface, but the Hlaalu plans are doubtless long-laid - conside Barenziah = former Empress?

As you said, it was the Redoran who resisted the Imperials and called on the other Great Houses for support. But they did not receive it. So the Imperial drive no doubt focused on them. and most especially in the north.

In Hlaalu Districts now there will be Imperials all over, but not in the same way that there are in the Redoran North and Vvardenfell. They will be trading rather than settling and fort-building.


Back in the past:
If you can consider what is here so far then you have to see that the Redoran might easily have wanted to keep their capital to the South, away from the violent border with Skyrim. Consider that the Nords settled Morrowind before the Velothi arrived ...

Blacklight would have been an important military and trade center re the Nords (and Cyrodiil peshaps?) But the location would have been too insecure historically for a Capital.

Kraggenmoore on the other hand was far from the initial turmoil. there were the small but comercially adventurous Hlaalu on the border and near them the aristocratic Indoril = gateway to the riches of the South.

And at THAT time the Hlaalu were no threat.


Now:
The Hlaalu have spent recent times snipping bits off the lands surrounding Kraggenmoore, and they are all over the City, but commercial gains and the Seat of Government are not the same, especially with a military House like the Redoran.

Now the Redoran are really under pressure and the Redoran Duke / Duchess knows it, but is it too late? Can something still be done to stem the Hlaalu tide? Is the heart of House Redoran totally corrupt and ineffectual?

With the destruction in Cyrodiil and the Death of the Emperor and his heirs is the Empire weakened enough that despite their own losses to the Hlaalu the Redoran can now fight back with some chance of success?

If you want a Capital from which this might happen, and to add real grit and pathos look no further than Kraggenmoore ... that is where the real struggle is between the Hlallu and Redoran.

And if the Vvardenfell War happens then that too will have a serious bearing on events in the Redoran South ...

You want a theme for a main Quest for Morrowind, then along with the destruction of House Indoril that is it = the Empire is in disarray, the barbarians are at the Northern borders and now the little guys begin to fight back as the New Rich close in for the kill.

If the Redoran Capital transfers from its Historic Home in Kraggenmoore then that signals permanent Redoran defeat. Why loose the drama of that struggle before the mod begins? If the Redoran South is already gone in total, then there is almost no Redoran as we have the Hlaalu and Imperials already all over the North, and they cannot maintain any presence Vvardenfell = no reserves ...

[KuKulzA]

raggidman, I love a good debate and I like us presenting good arguements on both sides :goodjob: :yes:

but realize... Great Houses to extent are fluid. Remember... the main unit in Dunmer society is the clan. There also used to exist more powerful groups of clans or large clans that were minor houses. A House is symbolic, a large dwelling for a clan or more than a clan. A Great House is a great clanstead for all the clans.
Clans are not bound unless intrinsically invested.

For example... the Ra'athrim Clan of Ebonheart had no reason not to break from Great House Indoril as it was in a power struggle/rivalry with the more recently, far superior Mournhold, and the majority of the Indoril... thus is had joined the Hlaalu which, promoting trade and peace witht eh Imperials, would profit them more. No doubt the clansmer of the Ra'athrim no longer felt invested politcally, economically, and emotionally to the Indoril House which they had become rivals with.
However, a clan that is deeply rooted and invested in a Great House probably wouldn't leave it, as by now it practically embodies the House is joined or formed long ago. An example of this would be the Sarethi Clan.They are Redoran through and through and would not leave the House.

But look at Kragenmoore. With Redoran's greatest strength in the north, Hlaalu's near the Ouda Thir to the east, Indoril farther east, and Dres far south, and the Telvanni far north.... those in Kragenmoore are farther from direct Great House influence. Thus those in Kragenmoore are more like separate clans and House clans that have moved in. They had deep affiliations with the Temple, but remember not all clans are within a Great House, though most are.
Therefore, it is not so much that the Hlaalu conquered these clans. It is more that the Hlaalu influence gave these clans no choice. They see what happens to the mighty Redoran unaided against the military giant of Tamriel. They see battered Dres and Indoril armies heading home through their land. What choice do these peasants, herders, and traders have? They want peace, and one Great House promises peace and prosperity - also the one Great House closest to them. Hlaalu.

now what you say is somewhat true...
"And at THAT time the Hlaalu were no threat."

but consider this... in Morrowind, a Great House is a very powerful thing. There is a certain sanctity with uniting the ancestors of every clan, uniting all its current clansmen into a large House. The only time that a Great House had been destroyed so to speak was the Great House Dagoth. It took a united Chimer egged on by a newly emergent Tribunal to wipe out all of Great House Dagoth... and they fought to the end.
Though there are rivalries, wiping out a House or regarding them as little more than a nuisance has never happened. Indoril disliked Hlaalu, but did they ever exile them, battle them, or anything liek that? No, not as far as we know.

The Redoran probably wouldn't have moved their capitol to Kragenmoore for a few reasons I think...

- a Redoran presence so close to Narsis would NOT encourage the Hlaalu to the Redoran side. The Redoran need allies, and a strong hold. They do not want to discourage other Dunmer from helping, and they also definitely do NOT want a cpitol in kragenmoore...
- by the time the Redoran lines were broken through and the Legions poured through the passes, their ability to wage war as a House was greatly diminished. Many fought with Vivec, but as a House commanding battlaions of fierce Redoran, that had ceased to be... they needed a safe place to recover... but Kragenmoore can't be this place cause..
- Kragenmoore is so close to one of the passes in the Velothi Mts. These are the places that the Redoran were trying to seal up in a sense. They do not want their capitol to be right next to a gate to the enemy. Especially since they are against Tamriel's greatest military power.
- the clans in the area aren't militaristic. They also aren't much under Redoran influence. Making a Redoran capitol out of the place, would alienate native clans, put their capitol right on one of the passes, and put them in close proximity to unfriendly Hlaalu.
- finally, by the time the Redoran territories were unable to put up an organized resistance, the war was shifting to the Bodrums area, just north of Kragenmoore. This means the war shifted from the passes and northwest, to the southwestern Morrowind. That's where Kragenmoore is...

basically, making a capital at Kragenmoore is suicide. You got unfriendly Hlaalu, little influence on the native clans and you're right next to all your enemies which have pouring through the passes, or are fighting just north of you.

and I hope I answered:
"By that time the Empire had eclared their hand and invaded ... IN THE NORTH mainly as I understand your potted histories"
the north AND the passes...


like in this edit to the map i made...
Redoran are farther from Kragenmoore than Hlaalu is, and the Septim's Gate Pass allows Legions to cut the southern Redoran off from the central Morrowind... meaning how will the Redoran get to Kragenmoore? Also Redoran defended the area along the Velothi Mts., but mostly in their area... and defenses along the way were small local militias that were reinforced by small groups of Redoran. Even though their warriors were all along the mountain range, its not like a few mercenaries are going to set up a capital, especially not right NEXT to a pass where their enemies are pouring through


I know you like the idea of a beleagured Redoran city being swllowed by enemies... but then again, isn't Blacklight suffering from similar troubles? and even if Kragenmoore were Redoran... there isn't enough going on for there to be a struggle... if it was Redorna then it would be a gradual Hlaalu-ization... but Blacklight has invading Nords, suspicious Legionaires, mountain orcs, local Dunmer, Redoran,etc.

[raggidman]

Interestin take there KKA, makes great sense if I were suggestin what you are suggestin that I am suggestin, which I am not

What I'm sayin is that in the far past the Redoran established their Capital in Kraggenmore, and therefore they kept it there, well fortified and secure, but that now they are under s=uch great pressure that they are desperate for someone to persuade them to move ... without that someone will not admit that they cannot hold without change and so they willl hold on to the death.

Guess who?

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by raggidman
Interestin take there KKA, makes great sense if I were suggestin what you are suggestin that I am suggestin, which I am not

What I'm sayin is that in the far past the Redoran established their Capital in Kraggenmore, and therefore they kept it there, well fortified and secure, but that now they are under s=uch great pressure that they are desperate for someone to persuade them to move ... without that someone will not admit that they cannot hold without change and so they willl hold on to the death.

Guess who?

and who ever said that Kragenmoore was EVER Redoran?

clearly the Redoran did not form near Kragenmoore, though it is possible. But their basis has always been in the north. Now of course it IS possible, but are we relying on possibilities, or the most logical route?
I believe that both Kragenmoore and Blacklight make a good case, however, by now, Kragenmoore would be so much controled by Hlaalu that Redoran resistance or reinstatement isn't feasible.
Realistically... thats like telling Vietnam to join back with China because the Vietnamese used to be a Chinese migration to South East Asia... that is IF we are supposing Kragenmoore WAS Redoran long ago

Blacklight is equally good...
instead of just one enemy factor (Hlaalu)... Blacklight has Nords, untrustable Imperials, Orcs, and within the Redoran themselves, those who were unhappy with Venim's move on Vvardenfell and those who were (now those who were are in the majority but when you have invading nords and Oblivion Gates you kinda wish a lot more warriors were at home)

[TheImperialDragon]

As a player, I don't want to see Hlaalu-ized Redoran, I want to see some pure Redoran, instead of some more Imperialized-Hlaalu locations. There should be some mainly Redoran cities around.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by TheImperialDragon
As a player, I don't want to see Hlaalu-ized Redoran, I want to see some pure Redoran, instead of some more Imperialized-Hlaalu locations. There should be some mainly Redoran cities around.

i too am sick of westernised Dunmer...

i want to see flowing robes, shalk herders, chitin wearing warriors... raspy Dunmer voices in the morning air...

not... "hello, I got chubby when I went to Cyrodiil, now I'm back in Morrowind cause I'm Dunmer... butr I'm still chubby and Imperialized"