The Capital of House Redoran

[raggidman]

Originally posted by TheImperialDragon
As a player, I don't want to see Hlaalu-ized Redoran, I want to see some pure Redoran, instead of some more Imperialized-Hlaalu locations. There should be some mainly Redoran cities around.

Definitely with you there TID.

As fer yer latest map KKA, does it seem to you that dimensionally it has got a bit squished?

Sorry, but at this rate there will never have been any truly Redoran territories. What you are giving seems to be Hlaalu-Imperial propaganda designed to ensure that there can be no basis for Redoran ever. But this is out-game, and you are not delivering it as the offering of an in-game character, so the bias is out of place.

I remember it being said that the Hlaalu were a small House comparatively, and that Kraggenmoore and the lands surrounding started as Redoran but that the Hlaalu invaded. Now who wrote that? Oh yeah, someone called KuKulzA ... wonder where he disappeared to ... nah, maybe I am mistaken, maybe there never was a KuKulzA?

[KuKulzA]

raggidman, what is your point?

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long ago I was told that Kragenmoore was Redoran. Long ago I was told Blacklight was totally Imperial. Long ago I was also told that there was only one Ebonheart. I've also been told that Narsis was farther west. Also I have been told that the Inner Sea did not form as a sea until Vivec flooded Morrowind...
Lots of things have changed.
I am sorry that you like to come back and tell me that once I said something different. But at one time, most people DID think that Kragenmoore was the Redoran capitol, before the Game of the Year edition of Morrowind and TES4 Oblivion came out
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I see you telling me that I am wrong, that I suggest things that you don't mean, that I'm in support of Hlaalu and Imperials, that I like propaganda, and that I have a bias against the player.

Now let me ask you...

the mighty Aztecs. They were utterly defeated though continued to exist under Spanish rule. Now, is Tenochtitlan theirs? No. Is Monte Alban, the home of zapotecs and once a tributary state, theirs? NO, it is not.
let's take a step back.
The Cherokees. Their ancestors, many have come from the Echota area. Yet they lived in the Smoky Mountains near what is now Georgia. Shawnees and Creeks have now settled that Tennesee area where their ancestors may have come from. Does that mean they own it? No, if they did it has long since been left for others. When they were in Oaklahoma Indian territory, did they own the Smoky Mountains? No cause it got taken over in their absence, and they were also forced out.
The Israelis/Jews used to own Israel. Does that mean they automatically own it after leaving for centuries. No, they had to fight for it. Remember Zionists?

so if the Redoran did own Kragenmoore, if the old and unreliable info is true... then do you really think they still own it?
It's right next to a concentrated point of Imperial attack. It is shortly west of Narsis. The Redoran are one of the weakest Houses right now. Not in terms of warriors, but in terms of cohesiveness and most of all - wealth. Without good trade and wealth, you cannot keep a loosely bound land of clans in your House. If you cannot enfranchise them into your Great House, they will find one that will suite them. One that can provide them with the goods and necessities of life they need. The Redoran can barely do that for their own people right now, let alone a bunch of Deshaan clans that don't owe any strong alliegance to Redoran.

---

you might win this arguement cause you have better english, and truthfully I can't understand half of what you are saying cause of the way it is presented and how there is so many implied statements, its hard for me to understand all your point... and so I gotta apologize for that.

However, I'd like to point out that Kragenmoore if it was ever Redoran is not likely in Redoran hands anymore. And that Blacklight has more excitement for the player than Kragenmoore does, because Kragenmoore, after several centuries of Imperial or Hlaalu influence is not likely to be under Redoran. Note the Temple, the Indoril, and the Redoran which may have influenced it before are in decline and have been in decline. Meaning they have less time to worry about some loosely related city out in the southwest when they have to worry about their own people.

[bob196045]

:eek:

What did I start here ????

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by bob196045
:eek:

What did I start here ????

a war of attrition
between two forces that are equally entrenched and deep in their convictions
one being very blunt and proving, and the other wily and cunning
yet none have made much ground



and funny is that we'll go back to being semi-TESmodding-literature buds after this

:lol:



but for now, its a debate... of attrition!

[raggidman]

long ago I was told that Kragenmoore was Redoran. Long ago I was told Blacklight was totally Imperial. Long ago I was also told that there was only one Ebonheart. I've also been told that Narsis was farther west. Also I have been told that the Inner Sea did not form as a sea until Vivec flooded Morrowind...
Lots of things have changed.
I am sorry that you like to come back and tell me that once I said something different. But at one time, most people DID think that Kragenmoore was the Redoran capitol, before the Game of the Year edition of Morrowind and TES4 Oblivion came out

???? Umm, let's see, how many hundred years passed between the original, genuine pre-XBox PC Morrowind came out?

Umm - I never had the Goty edition - partly because i heard that they started mucking about with the Lore - unnecessarily from the player's point of view. And so many people have said that Oblivion messes with Lore that I can no longer count them...

To hear you talk about Indoril one would expect that they no longer exist in any map, but I see that in fact they now 'seem' to have more teritory than the Redoran.

As far as I can tell there are still 5 Great Houses, but without certain basic requirements are there? If Redoran has no Cities per se is it still a Great House? Or have these new info sources lost the plot?

All the Lore that exists in game comes from an attributable (sorry but that unfruncheeese wordy is too hard fer me) source. And all carries the bias of the source openly.

Rumour in the Imperial Capital (and thereabouts) is going to be even more distorted re the Provinces than the Provinces' own take on themselves - after all the 'people' are ignorant and that has to be used to keep them in line, and persuade them to support and join the Legions = so the Empire and its allies (in Morrowind = the Hlaalu) is always doing well.

But as game designers we need to be aware of this and allow for it. I suspect that many ex-devs forget such things, or their offerings were edited by someone who did remember when the game was being made.

When inconsitencies go past a certain point in game, then as Devs we have to adjust our position.

Really the Redoran Heartland as we have it no longer exists, so we need a balance to that or we have to do a catastrophic collapse and end of the Redoran.

[KuKulzA]

if there is to be a great Redoran struggle, let it be in battle against enemies they can fight...
not the slow suffocation of Hlaalu tariffs and bribes and Imperial monopolies..
that is something Redoran swords can't fight... cause if they fight that, they will be beaten, either with many more mercenaries... outsmarted in the economic field... or influence wise...

let is be at a place where we know the Redoran retain influence... though not the strong warrior-house they used to be... all they need is the resources to be able to field an army, the charisma to rally the weary people...

you won't find Redoran with that in Kragenmoore...
you won't find too many Redoran in Kragenmoore according to most recent 'lore'

[raggidman]

I tend to see a huge difference between Lore of propaganda from the Imperial Cyrodiilics and Lore as fact as we experienced in Morrowind.

There appears to be a faction that wishes to dispose of Redoran, but if they have their way the game will be the poorer and a huge percentage of fans will look elsewhere.

What's the difference?

100 current Hlaalu fans + 100 current Redoran fans + 100 newcomers

vs

100 current Hlaalu fans + 60 dissatisfied Redoran fams + 100 newcomers.

Money is not all, it is just a useful tool. And I think you have to decide if you want a 'politically correct' World, or a Fantasy World. Tamriel.

If the Redoran wage war and kill the Hlaalu and take their lands by force then no more Hlaalu, so the possibilities do not run just one way.

The question is where do you want to start. With a believable Redoran or with a pseudo-Redoran.

And please do not equate the Redoran with the Red Indians. The Redoran and the other Great Houses all have a deep understanding of their own culture with its science and magica. It can be argued that what the Hlaalu are doing is getting themselves absorbed by an equal or inferior culture. While the Redoran are preserving their advantages, the Hlaalu are throwing them away.

Again drawing parallels, the great strength of the USA is that it has all but two elements of the periodic table in industrial quantity within its borders, not its political or economic systems. Claims to the contrary are just smoke intended to distract and undermine other cultures (as well as their own ).

On Vvardenfell it is the Redoran who have the Mines (Caldera is the big exception that the Hlaalu stole with Imperial help) and so the Redoran still have wealth, but it is not so ostentatious or obvious as the Hlaalu extravagant spending. And the Redoran wealth is the kind that can be used to create armies.

One can accept that the Hlaalu have made gains in recent years, but now that the Imperial center is in turmoil, the Redoran can get away with more smuggling and regain their strength. And there you have a serious basis for your 'war' on Vvar to parrallel the nefarious doings that you are undoubtedly plotting. = the Hlaalu are aware of this and are attacking to prevent the Redoran from making a comeback while the Hlaalu patrons are sidelined. Because lets face it, at the moment it is actually the Imperials in Morrowind and the other Provinces who are out on a limb following the Death of the deeply learned and capable Emperor followed by a devestating invasion.

One line you have ignored: what are King Helseth's connections with the Mythic Dawn? And please do not tell me that there are or were none.

[KuKulzA]

I don't understand what you are claiming?

I am a bit disgusted you look at a few small points of my arguement and throw the rest away. I'm sure I had made more than one comparison than Native Americans to Redoran. I am also sure that money is not all, but it is very strong, it is Redoran's huge disadvantage and Hlaalu's overwhelming advantage... and add Imperial and Helseth support. I also know that Redoran mines on Vvardenfell were pitiful. With Redoran falling apart on Vvardenfell, their trade caravans will be easily harassed. The mines in comparison to those available to Hlaalu and Imperials is puny.

raggidman... I'm not exactly your super-manipulative guy and I feel hurt you attacking me about it...
I don't understand the whole nerfarious thing? why don't you speak plainer? I already said I can't quite understand you
and I had no knowledge Helseth is a Mythic Dawn associate, I didn't know that and I won't trust it until proven to me

but let us take a step back, to stuff I can understand...

the Redoran on Vvardenfell are rich you say? Like a rich man that was just shot in the knee caps? Cause their capitol is gone and their leaders scattered trying to help the commoners...
so like a rich man shot in the kee caps... he's gonna fight a richer man who's in good health? Yeah, maybe if the richer man didn't have a gang of thugs with clubs pointed at him
what is their concern? a remote, slightly connected city that has been under Hlaalu-Imperial rule for centuries? or their own holdings under immediate danger...
man, plus even IF the Redoran were THAT rich to field some army on the mainland... EVEN IF... they have invading Nords... or if you are sending wealth from Vvardenfell... who own's the seas? the Hlaalu and Imperials. And are they the type to resort to smuggling? No, not unless they have no other choice... IF they had the wealth.


I want to show you that... Kragenmoore is just so far from their scope of their worries. They have little influence there. They have invaders at their frontsteps on Vvardenfell and on the mainland. They have Imperial control over their economy to deal with. Now they are gonna go fight for a remote city that is isolated from their sphere of influence for what...??

that's what I don't understand...
I always felt it was better to have the brave Redoran successfully defend their homelands... rather than go out and technicall yinvade someone else when they are practically crippled just so they can say that a city that might've been theirs centuries ago is now there's again... except surrounded by Hlaalu lands... that is suicide...


that's one reason it is so hard to follow you raggidman... I dunno if your easoning and intellect are just greater than mine or if your idea is bullshit. Seriously man... think about it. I concede that it could be fun, but that Blacklight is fun AND more logical. I doubt Redoran-fans will be turned off by Redoran defending themselves. I think they will be turned off by seeing Redoran invade Hlaalu and then of course while warriors are away Nords get to take over...

seriously... I don't get your logic?
and please, why are you accusing me off ignoring good facts and trying to manipulate the goings on of Silgrad's mod so i can do stuff on Vvardenfell?
I'm not that piece of shit kinda guy... I have told you what I know in honest and earnest attempt to show you what i mean. And I certainly don't need to change stuff in silgrad tower mods just to say something will happen on Vvardenfell.

EDIT:
I think you feel I am anti-Redoran. That cannot be farther than the truth. But experience has taught me that when you are fighting multiple people... you don't try punching at the one farthest from your while one guys in holding you down and the other is kicking your face. Redoran are in poor condition as a House, they have Imperial tarrifs and restrictions binding them unless they want to throw it all off and defy the stronger King Helseth's wealth and forces... and they have Nords attacking them and the looming future threat of Hlaalu, which has yet to be a direct threat

[TheImperialDragon]

Calm down, both of you. No more foot-stomping, flaming, or any means of attacking one another over this, we are here to discuss.

Okay, tell you what... Refreshed poll. I don't know if your arguments on either side will affect the new one, but here it goes. New information has been brought to light, so now to decide based on this new information.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by TheImperialDragon
Calm down, both of you. No more foot-stomping, flaming, or any means of attacking one another over this, we are here to discuss.

Okay, tell you what... Refreshed poll. I don't know if your arguments on either side will affect the new one, but here it goes. New information has been brought to light, so now to decide based on this new information.

Thanks...
staying objective and cool is tough when you gotta defend your convictions and you believe in them as well

i am sure it is the same with raggidman... we're probably a big aggravated the other won't agree

aight, let's re-poll

and raggidman, I feel we've pretty much put out all of our arguement, it's up to everyone to look at what we've talked about an decide I guess hrug: been good arguing with you, though some parts I still don't understand, but it's cool :goodjob: